Relationship Verbally attacked at the mall, why doesn't he fight back?

[Never_falter2]

So my husband, who has PTSD, me and the children went to the mall. He typically does not go to the mall, because he used to struggle with crowds which is however much better after he received therapy for it.
There was however a special offer, so we went. Being there we realized it was even more crowded than we thought. I realized my husband was feeling a bit stressed because I can tell by subtle signs. I asked him if he wanted to leave but he did not (because of the special offer which was not available online). Then we wanted to enter a shop and he froze near the doorframe where he was standing in the way.
One of the guys working for the shop wanted him to move but he did not hear him at first.
The shop worker must have been having a very bad day verbally attacked us and told us in very rude words to stop standing in the way. He did so in front of our children. The shop worker gave an angry and insulting rant and my husband did nothing but answer "Yes, Sir", "That won't be happening again, Sir", "Thanks for the information, Sir". I wanted to give him a piece of my mind, but he husband gave my signs to shut up.

My husband was very very stressed for the rest of the shopping trip, barked at the children. I decided to complain about the shop workers behavior but my husband stopped me. I am still thinking about this, because this is really lousy customer service. I certainly won't be shopping there again any time soon.

At home we had an argument, basically because I think it is not fair that he does not stand up for himself, but then barks at the children. He told me he was stressed enough and that talking back would have achieved nothing and that our children are horrible brats. Which is not true.

Unfortunately he often does not stand up for himself and I think it makes his condition worse.

I did read that "picking fights" is a symptom of PTSD, but is never talking back and answering people who openly disrespect you in the most polite way also a sign of PTSD. I am not saying he should be as disrespectful as them, but there is no need to go over the top with politeness, or is there?

 

[anthony]

Unfortunately he often does not stand up for himself and I think it makes his condition worse.

That is what you think, not what he answered you, being:

He told me he was stressed enough and that talking back would have achieved nothing

You're both present in a situation, but how you both think about it and respond, are vastly different.

I don't run around standing up to every person who has some attitude with me for whatever reason. I just don't care most of the time (a male thing), and it won't solve much except make me more stressed. So why do it? Is my attitude. Its a classic case where avoidance is a positive solution.

If I stick up for myself, as you put it, usually the other person will get hurt -- sometimes I get hurt too. My wife is usually pretty ok with me just doing nothing and walking away. Is your husband extreme at the other end of the spectrum? If so... probably why avoidance is a good action.

I have to say... my experience to date demonstrates many women love to stand up and voice their opinion and concerns to people when they feel wronged. No problems... it is IMO quite the female trait. Males aren't like that, as a majority. Males would rather go do something else that isn't causing stress.

Why not try for a further discussion with him as to why he avoids such conflicts?

 

[Never_falter2]

Thanks for your answer. Have you been like that before you have PTSD @anthony?

He thinks it achieves nothing and he claims that he does not care what other people think about him. That is why he does not talk back, but I think he is wrong.

Don't get me wrong. I do not want him to pick fights. I have a girlfriend whose spouse is like that. I am happy not to be with that guy. I am happy my husband is not like this, but why does he have to go overboard with politesness? And on the other hand he barked at our children and he claimed watching them was like herding cats. Typically he treats them well but the day he treated this shop worker who used some buzz words with uttermost politeness, but when one of our kids used a buzz word the same day he got angry at him.

I still want to complain about their lousy customer service, my husband does not want me to. I probably won't but I just feel that we are letting that guy trample on his. Yes, he is not important for our live as my husband pointed out, but still...

Another thing... my husband is a bit short of hearing... and this guy asked in a unfriendly and insulting tone "Are you deaf or what?". I wanted to explain to him but my husband stopped me... but I think the shop worker should be made aware that some people really are "deaf or what" and this should not be used as an insult, because it is really lousy style.

Don't know why but I still tremble with anger when I think of this person. Do you guys on this board think I should just let it rest?

 

[Never_falter2]

Do you guys think not fighting back makes PTSD worse???

 

[Justmehere]

There is a saying, "never get into a fight with a pig, because you get dirty and the pig enjoys it." I think this applies to this situation with this rude retail staff.

 

[The Albatross]

No I do not think "not fighting back makes PTSD worse" in this instance. I don't particularly think that "fighting" is an appropriate response with a mall employee though either.

I would like you to explain though how you think it's "unfair that he doesn't stand up for himself". That is really shoving your own stuff onto him I think. Reread your post #3... you've really got a lot of stuff loaded up to the situation. Unnecessarily in my opinion.

 

[Muted]

Just some different thoughts, I dont if any of this fits your situation.
Maybe it was your husband's way of protecting you and the kids by descalating the situation through a polite and compliant response. If he would have verbally and or physically responded it could have escalated the situation and who knows what would have happened. It sounds like he wasn't responding based on any emotion. It might be that your husband is choosing to take the high road, but I can understand how that is impacting you and the kids. It sounds like he's internalizing it and then projecting it to you and the kids.

You say that he froze in the doorway, it sounds like there was something that may have triggered him. Depending on his trauma and possibly the age of his trauma that could be triggering the compliant reaction that he's having in those situations.

Have you been able to talk with him and ask him to help you understand?

 

[dulcia]

"He told me he was stressed enough and that talking back would have achieved nothing"

^ That shows some pretty good insight. My partner is usually the opposite of how you described your husband in the situation. He is typically loud and sometimes antagonistic. However, the few times where we are both somewhat stressed (or escalated) at the same time, he has shut it off and disengaged, either telling me it's fine, to calm down, or to focus on something else. It's as if in certain situations he can tell we both might lose it and that's when he rolls over... I'm having a hard time trying to find the words to explain myself. Basically, maybe he took the calm/submissive road because he could see you weren't going to be able to (plus kids present).

 

[Tornadic Thoughts]

He thinks it achieves nothing and he claims that he does not care what other people think about him. That is why he does not talk back, but I think he is wrong.

You thinking he's wrong doesn't make what you think right. He's more right than many realize. What others think about us really is none of our business, but we insist on making it so, and then tearing and wearing ourselves down from the inside out trying to figure out why they think it and what we can do to change it. We were, after all, taught to please others at all costs, to work real hard at being considered good enough by meeting the expectations of others much of our lives, and that the customer is always right, so it can easily trip us up in our everyday happenings and interactions with others, with or without ptsd.

I am happy my husband is not like this, but why does he have to go overboard with politesness?

Perhaps it's the only way he can keep from tipping the scale to the alternative response of snapping. Perhaps he was thinking maybe the guy behind the counter also has ptsd, or is just having a shitty day, and can't help his behavior either, strongly empathizing with a stranger. Who knows? I, too, tend to be overly kind when I know I'm being purposely trampled on and disrespected at times, depending on the overall situation, the delivery, the audience, my awareness level in the moment, and my energy account balance in the moment. Hurt people hurt people and continuing the hurt only hurts all involved. It doesn't mean I won't deal with it later from a healthier space, but will do what it takes to calm the storm at the time. That takes a whole lot of self-awareness and strength to deflect such big doses of BS so gracefully without letting things get out of hand. I'd celebrate it rather than fault it, personally.

Typically he treats them well but the day he treated this shop worker who used some buzz words with uttermost politeness, but when one of our kids used a buzz word the same day he got angry at him.

The shop worker was a momentary one time event that occurred after being obviously triggered, as you described with him freezing in the doorway. He did what he felt he had to do in the moment. The kids are around all the time and he's much more affected and influenced by their behaviors and has possibly built up what sounds like resentments of some sort, from what you describe, and hasn't figured his way around dealing with it any healthier yet...plus, it sounds like it was right after having been triggered, then dealing with the rude shop keeper in a super crowded space, then being told he didn't handle that right at all by his wife, while still being in such a busy and overstimulating space. His energy account had long been tapped out and he was likely just hanging on as best he could.

I still want to complain about their lousy customer service, my husband does not want me to. I probably won't but I just feel that we are letting that guy trample on his. Yes, he is not important for our live as my husband pointed out, but still...

Another thing... my husband is a bit short of hearing... and this guy asked in a unfriendly and insulting tone "Are you deaf or what?". I wanted to explain to him but my husband stopped me... but I think the shop worker should be made aware that some people really are "deaf or what" and this should not be used as an insult, because it is really lousy style.

Don't know why but I still tremble with anger when I think of this person.

Perhaps use it as a learning moment for the kids in how to healthily respond to poor customer service interactions and demonstrate effective and respectful communication with the employee you have concerns with. Maybe share with your husband you'd simply like to write a letter to at least heighten awareness of how the employee could have more kindly and mindfully handled himself and clearly express you are only hoping to lessen the chances of others with similar hearing impairments or difficulties from ptsd being treated the same way. Take that opportunity to send along a helpful link or info page of some sort on ptsd and hearing impairments in public retail spaces, or something similar. Rather than a bitch session or emotional reaction, make it a valuable learning moment that may enrich the life of whoever reads it and may improve customer service overall. That gives you a chance to spend that energy that's bugging you so badly in a way that potentially benefits everyone involved. Just be sure to balance the scales by spending some energies also doing the same for the many employees who provide outstanding customer service, too.

Do you guys think not fighting back makes PTSD worse???

Nope. I think not learning when a fight is truly worth it and when to walk away in the moment is much worse. My weaponry has changed drastically through the years. Energy flows wherever our a-tension goes, and some things simply aren't worth an automatic withdrawal. I don't spend what I can't afford, monetarily or otherwise. I had to rephrase in my mind and heart what I felt were always fights and battles and had to figure how to love and educate my way through stuff instead. Too many wars had already been waged in my mind and on my body by others and I was too good at getting stuck in continuing their cycles of abuse by constantly residing in the exhausting fight or flight mode. I'm definitely more of a lover than I am a fighter now, but that doesn't mean I won't fight when it's necessary. Like a junk yard dog. I just find it much less necessary than I used to.

 

[Sweetpea76]

Do you guys think not fighting back makes PTSD worse???

I'm happy when my vet responds like this, even if he gets a little snappy with me later. The alternative is a salesmen with a broken face. He has broken more than his fair share of faces in the past.

PTSD rage and combat vet alpha-male aggression is not a pretty combo. I've only seen one fight he was in and it scared me to death.

Your husband's control was a very positive thing.

 

[Friday]

but there is no need to go over the top with politeness, or is there?

You can tell how close to violence I am by how polite I'm being. It ranges from habit to exquisite self control.

Do you guys think not fighting back makes PTSD worse???

Maybe. Stress cup. But not being in jail makes my life better.

 

[Sighs]

I agree with @Sweetpea76 and @Friday. My vet has told me that he basically has two reactions to this kind of behaviour - he can either behave like a good little boy and "pull the forelock" and respond with total politeness and compliance - or he can behave like a raging bull and destroy the entire store. There is NO middle ground.

Only once have I seen the bull. Luckily for the person his rage was directed at, I had one of his hands and an Army mate of his had the other and no-one was hurt. But I cannot tell you how close it was. And it would not have been a blood nose. The last time my vet hit someone he landed three punches to the head - the first one knocked the fellow out but the follow ups were fast enough that they landed before he hit the ground. I don't want to see that.