Shock Therapy Ect - I'm Shocked It Is Still Used, What Are Your Feelings?

[Ronin]

The way I've heard it from people who had ECT done (no prior contraindications to it) the memory loss wasn't that huge, range of days, two weeks maximum, the confusion about current time space was more pervasive. Seconding the support system; they've all had a partner / close friend to help them with daily life for quite a while.

@joeylittle, do you know how you recall things? From my experience with having lost memory after multiple injuries, it's more needed information than what you recall and don't recall; how you learn and what helps you remember how. It's possible to built up coping mechanisms with that knowledge that will be effective for you, specifically.

 

[joeylittle]

Thanks for your thoughts, @Cashew - and I do think I understand currently how my recall works. I guess what is scary is not knowing exactly what it is in ECT that causes the specific kind of ongoing confusion. I've read exactly what you said - that the remaining issue becomes a daily time/space thing, as well as there always being some long-terms things that you don't realize are gone until you need them (one person wrote about not being able to recall the name of their high school, and they didn't really know they'd forgotten until they needed it for a security question on a password reset).

If there was any literature or research or something beyond 'this is what will happen to you', I'd probably feel more comfortable. But when I put that together with needed to use my recall a lot, for one part of my job, and in a way that can affect peoples' safety - that's where I keep hitting the wall.

I'd probably try a vagal nerve implant first. SIgh.

I also find it somewhat telling - that the medical community has (I think) stopped working on the problems of ECT. In other words, no-one is really focusing on getting it to be less problematic. They are paying attention to other, less radical but more targeted, forms of brain stimulation. That seems to be where the future science is going, and so it seems to be worth it to try and hold out for something better - since I'm not actually non-functioning.

 

[Ronin]

@joeylittle, could you do anything like multiplying your associations to get to the same destination?

I'm not sure how to describe this; basically when I was dealing with something I needed the information to be kept, and was also rather aware it's something that's bound to be lost, I've made as many associations to that piece as possible - so where my usual tracks of healthy brain will fail? It will be retrieved from elsewhere, provided I'm whole enough to think at all.

Sort of multiple back-ups of files, if I can use the computer metaphor.

 

[joeylittle]

so where my usual tracks of healthy brain will fail? It will be retrieved from elsewhere, provided I'm whole enough to think at all.

This makes sense to me, actually. I had language problems after taking some bad whacks to the head, and in my mind, there are flashcards. So if it's an apple, but don't know the word, I do know how to call up round, green, fruit, edible, crisp, - at which point, I'll usually get 'granny smith', not actually 'apple', but then I can know that apple is one of the cards that goes with 'granny smith'.

It's funny, if it were words that were affected, I'd feel like I'd know what to do. Maybe it's just that I'm not sure exactly how I remember navigation, myself or someone elses' (which would be the work issue). I should just start paying attention better, really try and figure it out.

 

[Ronin]

@joeylittle, not sure this list of questions'll help any, may be something to ponder:

How do you remember space, how do you orient in it, how do you match description of that space and orientation with words for other people, what helps you remember the signaling system you're using (and also not mix the signals up)? What makes you feel reliable on yourself and the way you give information? (Maybe shoulda put that on the top of the list, really).

... Thinking aloud what might put that issue into a bunch of smaller issues and maybe more digestible. Space is a wide thing :D

 

[ECT-Mistake]

I just came across these posts on ECT, because I recently had a course of 6 ECT treatments & have been browsing the Internet on the subject. I had my last treatment yesterday. Well actually I could be doing up to 12, but I just stopped. I feel dizzy & off balance, my head feels weird like it's been hit. It has not helped my depression. In fact the 4th time threw me into a manic type state & I spent 3 days crying very hard. They say it can take up to 12 for some people to benefit, but I don't want to continue because I feel dizzy & I don't feel myself. I don't feel as sharp & witty which I normally am. I regret that I ever did it. My question is if anyone else has had a negative ECT experience, if anyone has felt dizzy afterward or negative mood effects, were you able to get back to feeling normal? Did the dizzy spells go away eventually? Any shared experiences would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[EmmaOwl]

WOW. Sorry, I am coming very late to this thread, but, having gone through ECT myself, having it pulled me out of my deepest darkest nonfuncional self... I have never been that deep since then.

It also seems to me that memory loss people are describing is not generally THAT disorganized. I have minor memory issues, but those are all things from the past. I forgot things like authors names, years of birth and death and the titles of all their books.

Hmm. English literature vs deep non-functional depression. I made that choice and I am glad that I did. I don't know if I would still be here anymore. I've stated on this site, in the past, that I was close to 100% non-functional. I would sit on the sofa all day and sleep on the sofa all night and eat when food was given me, and sometimes shower when I was pushed to... and driven to doctors and medications and in and out of mental hospitals. This captures it:

I mean "last resort" in that someone has tried ALL other options....they've run the proverbial gamut on supplements, they've tried alternative therapies that aren't in the mainstream, and so on.... once someone has really tried everything, then it may be time to consider risking brain damage.

Agree.

If you cannot make things shift with medication and you are non-functional, meaning you cannot communicate, you are either frozen or in constant fear - your mind is trapping you, basically - then yes, it's the best we have.

Agree

now the doctors put the patient under anesthesia when given the shock treatment.

True.

there are plenty of doctors looking into safe and effective ways to work with brain stimulation, and there has been real progress in that area.

Yes and there are people looking to make ECT, a type of brain stimulation, safe and effective, and you're correct, there has been real progress. Anesthesia. Yes there are potential problems with that, but honestly you're only in that state for like 5 minutes, and there are other reasons that it is less likely to harm than if you are undergoing surgery.

I found a research program that accommodated me. If anyone wants more details, I am happy to provide them, just send me a PM. Briefly, my experience was with unilateral as opposed to bilateral (wires hooked up to, oh, I don't remember! ;) let's say the left side, instead of both). which lowers risk of memory loss. They also do a mini-mini-mini current. Not only are you under anesthesia, the shock can be so mild that your body does not even shake during the procedure - which is what would happen during a "regular", uncontrolled seizure.

that the medical community has (I think) stopped working on the problems of ECT. In other words, no-one is really focusing on getting it to be less problematic.

Not true. Many of the doctors looking into safe and effective ways, that you mention above, take the science from previously incapacitating treatments. There are many modifications and I was well-informed of risks and benefits and possible outcomes. I was down too deep. I was becoming suicidal and checking myself into hospitals for my own safety - two or three times a year.
Since the ECT, I have had not needed to be inpatient. I cannot tell you how grateful I am for that, how much ECT has pulled me up from the dregs of life, and enhanced my ability to cope, along side other treatments. It IS a treatment of last resort. But it is certainly not barbaric, either.

 

[joeylittle]

But it is certainly not barbaric, either.

I agree with most of what you've said. What I would underscore is that there are doctors and programs who are committed to continuing to refine and improve ECT, but that is by no means common. So who you go to, and where you go, matters a great deal.

That is true to a certain extent for every medical procedure - some of the key difference with ECT is they still don't truly understand precisely why it works. But the researchers who are committed to it believe (rightly) that when they can finally isolate the detailed scientific 'why' of it, they will have revealed some key information about the brain and mental health disorders.

I went the other way, with TMS. It doesn't have the same risk factors. It's also not as strong a reset button. But, it did pull me back from a depression that was moving towards catatonic - it just didn't last, for me.

Anyone on the fence, though, I'd recommend TMS before ECT, if they can exercise a choice. It can do the trick.

I'm really glad to hear a success story with ECT, because it is, for many, a real lifesaver. It's just important to do some degree of due diligence, when looking for treatment providers.

 

[EmmaOwl]

who you go to, and where you go, matters a great deal.

Yes that's true. When I'd done my research, there were 3 places in the country I would have chosen and one of them was only a couple hours' drive from where I was living. I was lucky to be so close by, when I decided that it was time to take drastic measures. It might not have worked out, otherwise, due to more mundane things like transportation etc.

TMS. But, it did pull me back from a depression that was moving towards catatonic - it just didn't last, for me.

I'm glad it pulled you back! (to us here :)) Would you consider going in again, or was that it? A re-touch, of sorts? I'm just curious. I don't *think* you are trending towards catatonia here on these boards but people can perform remarkable feats and you'll have no idea what's actually going through their minds. I very much hope you don't find yourself in such need again.

The ECT program I went through was restricted time-wise (meaning not more than x number of treatments over a certain period of time) but I was definitely warned that the symptoms might return - thank goodness for me, that has not happened. (Neither am I picture of glowing health..but I'm HERE. Whatever that's worth!) But I believe they had a shorter course available - some patients experienced relief for several years and then had the results fade; I believe the time range was something like 3 to 5 years after initial treatment. I haven't had to do that. (And now, I'm about to scream at MYSELF for saying, again, "Everyone's different.")

I'm really glad to hear a success story with ECT, because it is, for many, a real lifesaver. It's just important to do some degree of due diligence, when looking for treatment providers.

Absolutely. And I'm glad to have mention of these things on the boards. I do agree with everyone who says how extreme this is, but it exists and it can be workable, when you have nothing left in you. That last little push actually ended up helping me, as it sounds like the TMS did for you. Not much is understood, but I do believe they are working on it (if only b/c of the spate of PTSD-d combat vets).