News Seattle shooting

[Casey_03]

I'm just curious what other on here think about this shooting incident. A pregnant 30-year-old woman known to have mental health issues was shot by police officers in Seattle this weekend.

Audio tape captures fatal shooting of black mother by Seattle police

Fatal Officer Involved Shooting Investigation in Sand Point

If you listen to the audio, it's pretty chilling. When I first read the headline, it seemed like a pretty strong case for excessive use of force. But the more details I read, the harder it became to draw a clear conclusion. Basically, this woman was known to police for mental health issues, and she had previously exhibited some very threatening behavior towards police. In this latest instance, she allegedly picked up a knife and began waving it at them. So I can believe that they feared for the lives.

But I do wonder why they couldn't use a Taser or some less-extreme method to restrain her, rather than shooting her in her own home while all her kids were present. But then the question is even bigger -- why wasn't she getting more intensive care for her issues? Should she even have been living on her own if she was in so much distress, and apparently out of touch with reality?

 

[desiderata310]

why wasn't she getting more intensive care for her issues?

Because health care- ESPECIALLY MENTAL HEALTH CARE, in this country, is piss poor.
I know every country has its' issues but if you don't have health care through your employer (and even then, sometimes if you DO) you are not likely to get the help you really need- either for mental health or physical health. It's sad and true.

There is so much WRONG with all of this. I recently listened to a podcast about race and how we all tend towards a bias EVEN WHEN WE DON'T CONSCIOUSLY HAVE A BIAS.
She was black, she was mentally unstable, she was likely poor (Based off what little I could glean from that video). The chances that she has adequate access to good mental health care? Was slim to none.

ObamaCare was supposed to help right some of those wrongs. IT was a step in the right direction but it's wasn't the solution. What's more was that it's a tiny part of a much bigger problem. The whole system is broke.

From where I sit? I have access to decent care. (not great). I waited for 4 months to see a specialist and only saw one when I did because my health deteriorated and my therapist stepped in to act as an advocate on my behalf - they were going to make me wait 11 months.

The. System. Is. Broken.
Our relationship with our neighbors is broken
The way police are being trained (Ask- demand-force instead of deescalation techniques) is antiquated.

In the end? None of that matters. Two people lost their lives; those kids lost their mom; those police officers carry that guilt and society as a whole carries the burden of it all.

I won't wander off into my own political views but I will say that if you vote, if you believe these things are wrong and things should be done differently, get involved in your community, get to know ALL your neighbors, and speak out. To hell with who leads the country. This has to be a local effort. Get to know our city council and go to meetings. Talk to the police locally.
Grass roots will be what changes the US. Not some fop or hero in the white house.

*wanders off the soap box to look for some tissue*

 

[Casey_03]

There is so much WRONG with all of this. I recently listened to a podcast about race and how we all tend towards a bias EVEN WHEN WE DON'T CONSCIOUSLY HAVE A BIAS.

Yeah, it's interesting that the officers in this instance went into the situation with a clear bias not necessarily even on the grounds of race, but mental health. Because they were talking about how she was "crazy" and "dangerous" before they even got to the scene. So I wonder how much that affected their decision to shoot right away. Rather than being informed about mental illness, their heads were filled with gossip at the police station, with other cops telling them the lady is a "nutcase." That has to have had an impact.

And yes, I would also definitely agree that this says a lot about the state of healthcare. Cause this woman should not have been living on her own with several small children if she really was as distraught and out of it as her relatives say.

 

[Deadman]

OK. I get the feeling I'm not going to be able to express this well but I'll give it a shot.

Something in police culture in America has gone seriously wrong. Most police forces have some sort of motto like "To Serve and Protect". Some seem to have forgotten those ideals. More emphasis has been placed on 'as long as you come home alive'. While I understand the desire of self preservation I don't think that it overrides "To Serve and Protect" for police officers, soldiers, or firefighters.

In all my time as a soldier nobody ever said that my primary responsibility was to come home alive. That was secondary to doing my job. I think it applies to police officers too. And I say that as the brother of a cop. There are times when you need to take risks with your own life in the service of others. If you aren't prepared to risk dealing with a mentally disturbed person armed with a knife without resorting to shooting them you might be better off choosing another career.

 

[desiderata310]

@Deadman
I get what you are saying.
I recently had 10+ hours to listen to NPR one in the car.
(don't ask)
One of the stories I listened spoke to this. With all training (and police get TONS of training)FEW, VERY FEW police get trained in deescalation techniques. They told a story about cop who approached a mentally ill man in Chicago and managed -over the course of three hours, to talk him down, and get him to peacefully go to the ambulance- WILLINGLY. Because he wanted help. It could have ended with him being tackled and taken down.

It didn't because she was taught to talk to deescalate the situation by ASKING QUESTIONS instead of barking commands.
It's not something that comes automatically when your adrenaline gets going but if it's practiced, it will kick in.

 

[Casey_03]

This story just gets sadder and sadder. Apparently this woman was a victim of pretty severe domestic abuse, for years. Her family says her mental health suffered after her ex and father of her kids started harassing her relentlessly, showing up and beating her, and trying to take her kids away.

Jesus.

 

[Deleted member 541]

What I will never understand is why they have to shoot to kill, if the weapon isn't a gun?? Why not shoot to hurt, not kill? Leg, arm, shoulder??? Just enough to stop or slow down the person....

 

[Deadman]

Why not shoot to hurt, not kill? Leg, arm, shoulder???

That doesn't really work in real life. Most cops are armed with pistols which are by their nature less accurate than long arms. Add to that the stress of the shooter and accuracy becomes very marginal. But I get your point. There are lots of less than lethal options. Pepper sprays, tasers, baton rounds etc. They do sometimes kill people but its far less likely than a bullet in the chest.

 

[provencepearl]

I'm just curious what other on here think about this shooting incident. A pregnant 30-year-old woman k...

It had a strong effect on me. Yesterday I saw an online video of the man who was shot by police and the jury let the police off. Then I saw an online story about this woman. So far, I was coping and not really registering. Then I went to a store and the manager harassed me about my service dog. There was not a polite tone. It was bullying. I managed to shop in spite of him and nearly lost it when getting in car. Pulled myself together, started driving. Saw two police cars on street with lights going and the officers were standing over someone down on the sidewalk. Suddenly it all hit and I was crying. Why is our society getting so violent? What happened to civil interactions and attempts to settle situations calmly? It is scary.

 

[Friday]

What I will never understand is why they have to shoot to kill, if the weapon isn't a gun?? Why not sho...

What @Deadman said. Hugely difficult shot, and even if you make the shot? 1. There are arteries in limbs, and rounds shatter bone, so the likelihood of a severed artery (and death) is high, but 2. Even hollow points (designed to mushroom on impact, to both create more damage and -hopefully- come to a stop inside a body cavity)... pass through limbs like butter. AKA Very high risk of dead bystanders. In buildings? That includes everyone in adjacent apartments (rounds also pass through drywall just fine, slowed some, but still super lethal), and if a window is behind them? Oy. Doesn't even slow them. Just alters the trajectory a tiny bit. So anyone within a couple hundred feet of the apartment is at risk. Including people in cars and buildings. 3. Shock. People, even with missing limbs will keep moving for awhile, much less people who just have a hole or shattered bone. Like up to several minutes. Which is ample time to kill a bunch of people. TBH 10 seconds is more than enough time to kill several people. Priority of life means that if there are bystanders, especially children? Their lives are protected before the life of someone who is endangering them. You go with the method safest for them. Not the person whose actions have authorized the use of lethal force.

One of the problems with less lethal options is that when there are children present? You run the risk of killing or crippling/maiming a child. Sprays compromise airways, cause blindness, & trigger heart attacks in children and the elderly far far far sooner & with less exposure than healthy adults. Beanbag & Rubber rounds, meanwhile, bounce off their target, at a speed not high enough to usually injure another adult, but hard enough to snap the neck of a kid. Tasers? Depends on the type, but again, the risk is electrocuting a child. So (simplest scenario, if the less lethal actually incapacitated the adult) you've just -maybe- saved the life of a parent and killed their child. But real life scenarios mean that some parents are abusive assholes, who will cheerfully use their own children as hostages, or kill them out of spite, and others who would never hurt their kid lash out in pain/rage/fear at whomever comes near them. Like children running to a fallen parent. Even just flinging an arm or kicking out can send a child into a wall or piece of furniture with deadly consequences. Again, priority of life. When there are children present? Their lives are priority.

 

[Friday]

Why is our society getting so violent?

Actually, it's the other way around. :D Violence has -overall- been steadily been decreasing since we've started recording it. Numbers vary a bit year to year, and there are always spikes, but the overall trend has been downward. For a long time. Like if you look at 1800s, 1900s, today. Or even if you look at 1917-2017. Massive decrease in violent crime. ((Although some of the spikes actually indicate changing ideas. It's not like men suddenly started raping their wives in the 1970s. That's when it was first made illegal -and therefore reportable- in this country. Although it wasn't illegal in all 50 states until 1993 :wtf: Marital rape (United States law) - Wikipedia. So sometimes one needs to know the history behind the numbers. Or it would look like spousal rape was blowing up all over the country for 20 years, when in actuality? What was truly happening was more and more states were making it illegal.))

One of the tells, even if you don't have the stats handy? 1. it's making the news. 2. Individual instances are the majority of those cases that make the news.

It's the stuff that's so commonplace it's not newsworthy that worry me.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

ObamaCare was supposed to help right some of those wrongs. IT was a step in the right direction but it's wasn't the solution. What's more was that it's a tiny part of a much bigger problem. The whole system is broke.

Amen!

For those against the new heath care bill. We NEED to replace ObamaCare! Not sure if this new one is it or not. I am at work and cannot watch the info that is coming out today or did already. But ObamaCare is failing and dying quickly. At least we quickly got a new bill in. I want it to be worked out and molded but ObamaCare needs to go.

I agree. Our healthcare needed reformed but ObamaCare isn't it. It was a good step but we now need to make new steps.