Question

[Jimmy1]

Here is the story.

We have a Vietnam Veteran who did 40 years, I even served with him in my final year, well he is the president of the local R.S.L. (Returned Serviceman's League) and was the official head or something of'Mates4Mates' another veterans organisation. He since had to step down.

Well one of his mates from Vietnam committed suicide.

Well Bill posted on his 'Private' Facebook page something along the lines of how he will miss him, and that he wishes his mate called him. His final part was something along the lines of that he thought suicide was selfish because of everyone that was left behind.

He has since been attacked by the family and has had to resign from mates4mates and there were calls for his resignation.

This was his private FB page, not his public one or any other. And he would be hurting almost as much as the family.

I believe that he should be able to right what he wants. Just like celebrity parents should be allowed private moments with their children.

So I wanted to put a poll up, it's a great discussion piece.

Personally, all these right to lifers should have my back, they say that the fetus has a choice, so why not someone with a life sentence like PTSD, MS, Epilepsy, etc, etc,

 

[OldDoorGunner]

Good question......My nephew committed suicide 02/02/93 He was 24 and not a Vet......That was 23 years ago today!!!

So for me it is selfish when you see the all the pain, for all that are left behind.....But one needs to ask the question, of what state of mind
was the person in at the time??? In the case of my nephew, no one saw any signs what so ever.......So in a since, I am wrong in saying that it's
selfish.....It's a catch 22 when you come down to it.......I did read a story about all the people that jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge and lived.
Every one of them said.......right after they jumped.....they wished they had not......What had made them jump, was gone in an instant.....

In the case of a terminal illness, I would say it's that's person choice!!! Here in the states not long ago, we had a woman with Terminal Brain Cancer.
She moved to the State of Oregon where it's legal with a doctor, to take your own life. It was her choice and she planed it out, was not a rush job.
What would I have done??? Truth is I do not know......I think I would do hospice care to my end!!!

My wife when she found out she was terminal, she wanted to fight the cancer. I never told her she should go to hospice care. She wanted to fight it, that was her choice. In a since, she got comfort care at the hospital, as there was not a thing they could do....Other than lots of pain med's. However, my daughter and I were with her till the end...........

J R

 

[Spock]

This is a good topic Jimmy. I brought it up in group therapy once because it is the elephant in the room most the time and vets should talk openly. They should know it is common that it may take space in their thoughts, they aren't the only ones, and there is help and better options.

I can't simply say "yes" or "no" to this question, it is so personal and as ODG noted, the circumstances are so different. Do they have young children & are they still involved or will it forever cause them harm, will dependents lose benefits, was it an accident, were they so self-medicated and not know what they're doing, do they have terminal illness, did they take care of things beforehand to limit the impact, leave an explanation, etc. Like many here, I've been down that dark hole and talked to many brothers & sisters that have as well.

I can regret someone's decision and most the time, even reading about a vet hits too close to home and affects me greatly but I can't judge or label them. In regards to your friend, I can't judge his opinion either. He should be able to make it without being attacked. He was affected too and obviously felt betrayed by his mate.

We all must tread softly on this topic because nothing about it is a good thing except reducing the toll it takes on our community.

 

[Grizzly]

It is a hard thing to debate as we do not each others state of mind. There are so many types and levels of depression and mental illness that how do you begin to judge. Then we get into terminal illness.

It is a rough subject. There have been dark times for me dealing with deep depressive states, PTSD, anxiety and top it off chronic pain. i wonder how much longer could I go on. It sucks! But one thing that talks me out of it is the selfish aspect of it.

 

[Friday]

Unless you're jumping on a grenade? Yeah. It's about the single most selfish thing I can think of.

Selfish doesn't mean wrong.

If I would give someone mercy? No way in hell I'd think they were wrong for doing for themselves what anyone else with even a shred of humanity would do for them, if they could. But that's the kicker, right there. If someone who loved me, or a complete damn stranger, wouldn't do it out of kindness? Then it ain't a kindness. I'm not doing anyone any favors. Doesn't matter what the f*ck kind of excuses I'm making up in my head.

It's not the selfishness that's wrong. It's the consequences of our selfishness.

It's selfish wanting to die 5 minutes before you would... In screaming f*cking agony.
It's selfish wanting to die 50 years before you would... In pain that's just as blinding.

Difference between the 2 is? To my mind? Having spent way too much time suicidal as f*ck? One is mercy, & one is laziness. I can't do this anymore... Is laziness. Anymore? Always/never? No f*cking way to know that shit. Now is not forever. I can't do this right now... Truth. Hurts too damn much. But dying ain't the answer when it's life that hurts. Dying is the answer when it's dying that hurts. Thats mercy. If my dying hurts? Die better. If my life hurts? Live better.

Easy to say. Hard to do.

 

[vikingr24]

Sore subject for me right now. I have been doing a lot of work with local vets, and some far away, who have ideated suicide. It takes enormous patience and understanding because of the great pain I don't think is understood by most, even first responders. I always worry about saying something wrong, because I have been there staring down the barrel too.

I did read the article ODG mentions about bridge jumpers who regretted their decision. And it is a major reason why I try to persevere to help.

There is a cost to that. Every time I call the VA for another buddy, they always ask, and rightly so, how I am doing. Am I OK? Any thoughts of suicide? Those who are close, or those who are left behind, have those thoughts to deal with as well. The stats are really scary. When I counseled before, we had to go to therapy ourselves with other counselors in order to deal with issues we faced and had no where else to go. It did not work. I had to leave the profession because of it.

I am almost stronger because of PTSD, but in many ways, weaker. I understand the multiple sources of pain for a PTSD sufferer, but fight with my own issues at times. Just as in war, there comes a time when you choose between losing yourself or your friends. I am so glad I never had to make that decision.

But a planned suicide with doctor assist, a suicide due to failing and terminal health? NO question. Should be allowed.

I sure do feel bad when we lose a life that went through so much pain. As long as the survivors are given time to grieve and get on with their lives. Difficult to have happen though.

 

[Grizzly]

Good points @vikingr24

I think one of the things many of us do is take that moral inventory of ourselves. I've found myself doing this a lot. This ideation, along with ruminating and guilt begin to play hell on the mind. To start to think that "they" are better of with "me" not "here". I catch myself a lot. That tipping point between rationale thoughts and irrational actions.

 

[Ace]

"Some" of us get tired of fighting whatever is plaguing us, it gets old and sometimes it's when we are at our lowest point usually when "some" of us just give up.They feel less of a human for trying to reach out and it gets old reaching out for help. Won't never admit suicidal myself as they would take my firearms thinking that would stop me, that would only drive me more willing to "clock out" since they took away something I use to hunt for food for myself, a way to let out aggression or feel alive again, and a way to protect my home. To take a firearm from a combat vet is to cut his cock and balls off then tell him to live with it.

 

[Friday]

To start to think that "they" are better of with "me" not "here". I

Yep.

Been here for months.

I try really really hard to let other people make their own decisions, even if I think they're stupid decisions -like having me in their lives- but I still pull back. Don't mean to. I just hate myself too damn much, am sick and tired of my own BS, don't wanna put that on anyone else. That morphs very quickly into leaving to protect them from me. I'm trying not to do this. I just kinda suck at it.

 

[Deleted member 43454]

Never give up. Never surrender. Nobody here got here by being a f*cking quitter.
Hang on, crawl, walk, run, ride get back up on that horse slowly but surely. One day
at a time. Take time to appreciate what the f*ck you already have currently.
And know that each day you are not alone in these fleeting thoughts or anguish.

We can get caught in pain caused by wanting what we do not have, or wanting someone else's life style,
but we really cannot see what they struggle with because we ALL struggle. Whether they want to admit it
or not. Each day we can choose to pay attention to the negative, or wallow in past memories and emotions.
Or we can seek to build new ones. Who will defend your families after you are gone?

Reach out, help one another talk it through. I am thankful for those who have helped me
through dark times.

 

[Sludge]

If my dying hurts? Die better. If my life hurts? Live better.

Friday summed it up perfectly.

However, my caveat: I earned the right to die however and whenever I see fit. Shit, we (OK, many of us) volunteered to die. Does that not logically constitute a suicide attempt? In my book it does. Our brothers that got drafted have the right to a completely differing opinion and I support that as much as my own. My opinion means nothing to anyone except me. I feel this way about others opinons. I support you opinion only because you have the right to have one. Beyond that I look to my empty "F*cks to Give" Jar.

That is not selfishness. I want to culture tumors with my smokes a few times a day? My business. I wanna pile on a dozen cheeseburgers a day and drink nothing but soda? My business. Is my agonizing pain a drain on my family? Is my unstable mental health causing undue pain to my family?
I say, work it out. Keep on trying. But for some, there is no alternative. That is their business, not mine.

Frankly I get offended when people argue over an archaic rule put in place by Judeo-Christians to out populate their oppressors.
While I by no means condone self-check out, I can understand why some choose this path.

Call me an asshole, but self check out is the cowards way out. Hell, I suffer with guilt most everyday because I didn't have the guts to do it when I thought I should have. Don't get me wrong- I'm f*cking happy I didn't, but I can never forgive myself for my cowardice about even considering that as a viable solution to the situation I was in at the time.

If I had had a stage 4 non operable, not treatable tumor, that is different. I'd party hard till I couldn't party anymore and then take myself for a walk in the woods. My business, my choice, screw other's opinions on my choice. It is none of their beeswax.

 

[Sludge]

If my dying hurts? Die better. If my life hurts? Live better.

Friday summed it up perfectly.

However, my caveat: I earned the right to die however and whenever I see fit. Shit, we (OK, many of us) volunteered to die. Does that not logically constitute a suicide attempt? In my book it does. Our brothers that got drafted have the right to a completely differing opinion and I support that as much as my own. My opinion means nothing to anyone except me. I feel this way about others opinons. I support you opinion only because you have the right to have one. Beyond that I look to my empty "F*cks to Give" Jar.

That is not selfishness. I want to culture tumors with my smokes a few times a day? My business. I wanna pile on a dozen cheeseburgers a day and drink nothing but soda? My business. Is my agonizing pain a drain on my family? Is my unstable mental health causing undue pain to my family?
I say, work it out. Keep on trying. But for some, there is no alternative. That is their business, not mine.

Frankly I get offended when people argue over an archaic rule put in place by Judeo-Christians to out populate their oppressors.
While I by no means condone self-check out, I can understand why some choose this path.

Call me an asshole, but self check out is the cowards way out. Hell, I suffer with guilt most everyday because I didn't have the guts to do it when I thought I should have. Don't get me wrong- I'm f*cking happy I didn't, but I can never forgive myself for my cowardice about even considering that as a viable solution to the situation I was in at the time. There is some shitty logic for you: I am pissed at myself for being too much of a coward to take the cowards escape.

If I had had a stage 4 non operable, not treatable tumor, that is different. I'd party hard till I couldn't party anymore and then take myself for a walk in the woods. My business, my choice, screw other's opinions on my choice. It is none of their beeswax.