Safeguarding and reporting regulations

[biaaw677]

Have you got a link for this? Genuinely curious as I haven't been able to find out more about it.
I did...

Law can be quite obscure and intranparent, even to those who are qualified in law. As law in general is such a huge subject most people specialise in a specific area of law. The people at STOPSO are clearly primarily concerned with arguing the issues as they affect sex offenders .

At https://www.stopso.org.uk/ it is explained by these words:

"We believe prevention is better than cure, so StopSO provides specialist therapy to sex offenders and those who have yet to act on their ‘troubling thoughts’. We also work with families, helping them come to terms with being related to a sex offender."

Contrast this aspect with the needs of the Victims of Sex Offenders; that is those appertaining to this site, those suffering PTSD and CPTSD. Most victims have a right that the offenders are prosecuted and convicted for the wrongs they have done. Most victims would like to prevent others suffering the same traumatic experience as they suffered. This has particularly come to light in the UK within the case of sex offender John Worboys where this offenders early crimes were reported and ignored such that he became a notorious offender. As one victim said "The first women he raped, who has a right to remain anonymous, told Sky News: "The bottom line is, if the police had believed me in 2003 then there would only be one victim of Worboys." Victims of black cab rapist Worboys were failed by police, rules Supreme Court

It does have to be said that for any citizen there may be reasonable and understandable mitigating circumstances that prevent them from reporting crime or potential of which they are aware. For instance, when a victim of csa does not report what happened to them for twenty, thirty, forty years, most people understand the delay and all that goes along with it; similarly the victims of the holocaust have only achieved some prosecutions of the perpetrators of their injuries fifty years hence.

The citizens' duty to report crime or potential crime is based in society's values, the moral duty, and the legal fact that if one is thought to have encouraged, incited, aided or abetted a crime then one is open to be charged oneself with a criminal offence. More explicitly this is defined in the Serious Crimes Act 2007 Inchoate offences | The Crown Prosecution Service.
Ask yourself this question 'If I consider that I am a law-abiding citizen, why or when would I not report crime?'

 

[biaaw677]

you should ask for your money back.

To the contrary, yYou should enlighten your ignorance by reading the rest of my relevant references to the law throughout this thread.

 

[digger]

The people at STOPSO are clearly primarily concerned with arguing the issues as they affect sex offenders .

Apologies, I wasn't completely aware of the sites aims, and would have preferred not to link from there if I had. I was struggling to find UK specific information on what you were saying though.

So, are you saying that what they are citing is not factual?

The citizens' duty to report crime or potential crime is based in society's values, the moral duty,

Moral duty and legal obligation are not the same thing though are they?

Ask yourself this question 'If I consider that I am a law-abiding citizen, why or when would I not report crime?'

Morally, yes, in most cases (but not necessarily all) I would likely choose to, but that is not the same as being legally required to do so is it?

 

[digger]

@biaaw677
From the same site you've linked to above, I searched 'obligation to report crime'
Reporting a crime | The Crown Prosecution Service

If you witness a crime you have a vital role to play in bringing the criminals to justice. You may well be feeling upset and have doubts about reporting what you have seen. There is no legal obligation to contact the police, but the information you give them could bring a criminal to justice. Reporting the crime to the police could prevent further crimes being committed and protect others from becoming victims.

 

[Friday]

If I consider that I am a law-abiding citizen, why or when would I not report crime?'

Because it’s not in their patient’s best interest to do so?

So not only is there no legal requirement to report, but ethically every good reason not to?

 

[Suzetig]

yYou should enlighten your ignorance by reading the rest of my relevant references to the law throughout this thread

I think you’ll find that I’ve been pretty consistently, accurately, stating the legal position on this one.

The duty to report safeguarding issues comes about through either registration with a governing body (ie the HCPC) or through contract of employment (eg education). There is no statutory requirement to report crime or criminal activity other than money laundering or terrorism.

You’ve changed your position from “you can be jailed for aiding and abetting if you don’t report crime” citing your recent law course as the source of this gem to “there’s no legal requirement but there is a moral one”. Morality of course is a social construct so even claiming moral imperative doesn’t mean people will consistently act the way you’d like them to or think they should.

I’d respectfully suggest I’m not the person in a state of ignorance here.

 

[blackemerald1]

Ouch!! @biaaw677 - if you want to talk moral accountability then please start a new thread about that. It would be interesting to see how that would go with other forum members.

Please... you made a bold statement, were challenged about it. You have not given any actual reference or precedent to the black and white letter of the LAW. Sky News Inc., a commercial company that buys news to sell their product. They are not the Law...

I can have all the 'troubling thoughts I like' and so can any UK citizens and not be charged with a thing. I have often thought of finding the perpetrator's of certain crimes (whilst having a bath) and going and bludgeoning them to a pulp....am I liable to be arrested NO. I could go next door and tell my neighbours that I want to go and bludgeon someone....must they report it NO. Could they be open to being charged to aiding and abetting...NO!

I could even go down to the local copper's and tell them I have these thoughts and only under particular circumstances & with particular evidence can they proceed to arrest, charge or even dream about getting a conviction. They would tell me quite rightly to piss off and bother someone else for a while.

There is this thing called 'presumption of innocence' and the Police must get 'evidence' and the Prosecution must jump the bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'. All of these concepts seem to be lost on you.

Are you sure you did not do a course of maybe philosophy or something...

 

[Suzetig]

Most victims would like to prevent others suffering the same traumatic experience as they suffered.

What utter rubbish. Most victims wish it had never happened to them and struggle with their own feelings about it. Most never want to go anywhere near the justice system and shouldn’t be victim shamed into doing so. Regardless of what happened to them, the victim is never responsible for the harm done to others by the same perpetrator.

A very rough and ready look at stats in relation to sexual offences will reveal a very low proportion of sexual offences ever get reported, and a tiny percentage of them actually result in conviction. Victims are traumatised by the reporting and prosecution processes and don’t even get the comfort of a conviction at the end.

I’ve no idea whether you’re here as a sufferer, supported or what but you seem to have an incredibly poor grasp of the issues surrounding sexual offences specifically, child abuse and safeguarding or indeed the impact of trauma in general.

 

[biaaw677]

I was struggling to find UK specific information on what you were saying though.

I am pleased that you recognised that a UK reference was needed here, but it is also important to identify who is saying what. The fact that you struggled to find something that goes against the facts I reported surrounding Safeguarding Regulations speaks volumes.

So, are you saying that what they are citing is not factual?

STOPSO are merely commenting on a Governmental Consultation Report surrounding the mandatory requirement to report child abuse and neglect. STOPSO's position is the views of psychotherapists and counsellors whose field of practice is working with sex offenders and the families of sex offenders. On a site like MyPTSD, that is primarily concerned with the victims of csa and other abuses and the families of victims of csa and other abuses, the focus is on the victim's experience, suffering and survival/treatment needs. There is an obvious conflict of interest with the views whose primary focus is looking after the sex offendors.

Morally, yes, in most cases (but not necessarily all) I would likely choose to, but that is not the same as being legally required to do so is it?

Your choice whether to report or not to report knowledge of a crime or potential crime will only be considered as a relevant mitigating circumstance should the police or criminal prosecution service decide to charge you with encouraging, inciting, aiding and abetting a crime under the Serious Crime Act 2007. Your actions surrounding whether to report or not report do not prevent you from being prosecuted. It is up to you as an individual to decide whether to report or not, but your decision not to report does lay you open to being prosecuted.

This said on a website like this where many are potential csa victims etc. it is important to point out that children are accepted as not being fully in control of their actions. The duty to report or risk prosecution I am highlighting here applies to adults; particularly fully competent adults such as therapists. Vulnerable adult patients suffering and in the grip of PTSD and CPTSD symptoms would likely be handled sensitively due to the mitigation experience of being traumatised. However the case of Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr does demonstrate that

As a law-abiding citizen, the fact that one will be open to prosecution of encouraging, inciting, aiding and abetting a crime, more often than not enough for any reasonable citizen to recognise they have a legal duty to report crime or potential crime; the moral and ethical mitigating circumstances are secondary factors.

For therapists in the UK, who must be registered as practitioner psychologists with the HCPC, they have a legal duty to report crime and safeguarding issues, under Care Quality Commission Regulation 9 as indicated in The Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) Regulations 2014 the Mental Health Acts 1983 and 2009, the Mental Capacity Act 2005 and its Code of Conduct, and the Equality Act 2010

 

[digger]

As a law-abiding citizen, the fact that one will be open to prosecution of encouraging, inciting, aiding and abetting a crime, more often than not enough for any reasonable citizen to recognise they have a legal duty to report crime or potential crime; the moral and ethical mitigating circumstances are secondary factors.

I read the link you quoted about encouraging, inciting, aiding and abetting, and it did not read to me the way you seem to be interpreting it at all.

The fact that you struggled to find something that goes against the facts I reported surrounding Safeguarding Regulations speaks volumes.

I could not find anything at all to support those 'facts' though, which is what I was searching for and I'm not seeing anything specific from your posts that supports them either.

I have quoted from two other places where it clearly states UK citizens do not have a legal obligation to report crimes, let alone potential ones. I've yet to see anything concrete from you that supports them having a legal duty to do so.

 

[biaaw677]

Because it’s not in their patient’s best interest to do so?

So not only is there no legal requirement, but ethically every good reason not to?

The decisions about what is 'ethical' need careful scrutiny, because there is potential to just use the term as a therapist's excuse to turn a blind eye is high, when one actually has a responsibility to report a case to the Safeguarding Board or the police. If a therapist has an ethical dilemma, no doubt they have a clinical supervisor, a higher accountable officer, or an ethical committee to whom they could or arguable should turn for advise, rather than just do nothing.

A therapist under the HCPC Standards of Proficiency has to consider factors of safeeguarding both their service user and the wider public (standard 7.3). This means that if the therapist identifies that a perpetrator of an abuse could repeat that abuse either on the service user or somebody within the wider public then they have a duty to report the case to the local Safeguarding Board in order to protect other victims or potential victims of said perpetrator.

Please understand that when organisations like the General Medical Council, Nursing and Midwifery Council and Healthcare Professional Council set Codes of Conduct and Standards of Proficiency, these organisations do so under law. When cases of professional misconduct, neglect, abuse are reported to these organisations, the subsequent organisations, committee decisions are decisions made at an authoritive level at minimum of a legally equivelant First Tier Tribunal. These decisions can be appealed etc. in higher UK courts. If said organisations uncover any criminal offences in their investigations they too have a responsibility to report such crimes if such have not already been reported.

 

[Ronin]

On a site like MyPTSD, that is primarily concerned with the victims of csa and other abuses

No, it is not.

It is a site concerned with sufferers and supporters of a concrete disorder, and relatedly trauma.

You seem to be operating with a lot of guilt tripping about people's decisions if and who to report to.
Are you aware some times, to the nature of the crime or the way system operates in any given place, you would be opening the victim up for further guaranteed traumatization, by the system, their own perpetrators, or both?

And frankly, that presumption of guilt is not how law abiding and law concerned citizens present themselves all too often. Are you sure you were not taking notes from a well dressed, well spoken thug instead of an actual law practioner?