Rant on diagnosing others

[Sideways]

I had a knee jerk response to the OP and her judgey attitude and I guess, those that indulge in that sort of self righteousness.

The amount of emotion in your posts is palpable, and I don’t want to antagonise or upset you.

But, just to take a step back, are you able to see that if someone challenges your ability to accurately diagnose your abuser, they aren’t challenging (or diminishing) the severity of the abuse you survived?

For example, extreme and pathological lying and manipulating are not inherently NPD traits? Even at a pathological level.

For example, children who grew up with a parent suffering severe Borderline Personality Disorder, are very likely to report similar experiences of their parent displaying severe and pathological lying, manipulative, need for control, and massive and changes between the overt abuse in the privacy of home, while appearing like the perfect parent to the outside world?

So, it’s the nature of the abuse, rather than the diagnosis itself, that defines the abuse you have suffered. And when someone challenges “how can you diagnose your abuser with NPD?”, they aren’t necessarily minimising your experience.

Rather, they may simply be suggesting that the abuse you suffered doesn’t necessarily fall neatly into a single diagnosable mental illness, and very likely what they’re suggesting is “NPD doesn’t satisfactorily account for the abuse you suffered, because many people with NPD aren’t anything like as heinous as your abuser...”?

 

[mumstheword]

The amount of emotion in your posts is palpable, and I don’t want to antagonise or upset you.

But, just to take a step back, are you able to see that if someone challenges your ability to accurately diagnose your abuser, they aren’t challenging (or diminishing) the severity of the abuse you survived?

For example, extreme and pathological lying and manipulating are not inherently NPD traits? Even at a pathological level.

For example, children who grew up with a parent suffering severe Borderline Personality Disorder, are very likely to report similar experiences of their parent displaying severe and pathological lying, manipulative, need for control, and massive and changes between the overt abuse in the privacy of home, while appearing like the perfect parent to the outside world?

So, it’s the nature of the abuse, rather than the diagnosis itself, that defines the abuse you have suffered. And when someone challenges “how can you diagnose your abuser with NPD?”, they aren’t necessarily minimising your experience.

Rather, they may simply be suggesting that the abuse you suffered doesn’t necessarily fall neatly into a single diagnosable mental illness, and very likely what they’re suggesting is “NPD doesn’t satisfactorily account for the abuse you suffered, because many people with NPD aren’t anything like as heinous as your abuser...”?

Yeah, good point @Sideways.

 

[mumstheword]

She asked a community of people with mental health disorder to stop judging another community of people with a different mental health disorder.... That is the opposite of judgey.

That is caring about a non judgmental and fair environment.



How is what someone does as a work or a life time of very earned credentials a power and authority issue?

And I mean, what kind of authority are we talking here?
I am trying very, very hard to not imagine a terrifying commando armed with three or four editions of diagnostic manual hunting people down and torching their houses and whole hoods.... but kind of failing.

So, seriously, what is the power, authority, dangers, etc, here? Realistically.



What is that high level manipulation / master manipulation we are talking of here?
I mean: Mechanics, types, and so on, that makes it be any different from all (very similar) types of manipulation, in (rather ordinary) settings.

Because I am not seeing those Super charming manipulators (as God ordained them, probably.).
Manipulation is spottable / dealable with / defendable against... not something charming and god like and specific to a few gifted personality disordered fellas.


Nope.

Being factual? Is fairly helpful in dealing with trauma and exactly the thing people be all against, being manipulated. Harder to manipulate people whose picture of the world checks with reality and actual figures of any given thing.


A lot of people lie, for many reasons. That is not specific to any sort of abuse.
Never be able to? Which people?
Because lies of various types are so super common.
And in some corners?
Are what good manners are. :) (I could totally argue that politeness / decency / and all?
Involves lies. Just of a different type / in different situations / aimed to make people feel better about themselves or forgive each other, instead of else.
Those, too, are lies.)


That is assuming too much, again.

Everybody who is against X thing has no experience with it what so ever. Gasp.
Maybe people do. Maybe people do way much (with diagnosed disorders, not just their idea of those) ... and that is why they are against the conflation of facts, lived may be mostly factual anecdata, and just personal biases that are neither factual, nor close.

Sophistry, sophistry, sophistry.

She had no way of knowing. Obviously has an issue with the label. That's her own bug bare. The issue remains, she's irritable about victim s expressing something about the type of abuse they endure. I was irritable back.

 

[KwanYingirl]

I think people spend an inordinate amount of their time labeling others, making subgroups of the dominant member of the group. What is the motivation for that? We are constantly comparing ourselves seeking solidarity. Strength in numbers. Everyone has their journey to wellness. Attaching labels to elevate yourself as the superior member of the group is self serving. A truly narsisistic person is not treatable. I have one living above me. She delights herself by gaslighting me, stalking me, avwoman with no consciousness. Never acknowledges her abusive behavior. She quite likes her dictator role in our little group in a condo. It is very hurtful to be victimized by her. Knowing full well that she is unable think critically but goes on her own rants like any of us even bother to read.
Like any disorder, there is a spectrum of overlapping characteristics that could land a person in different categories. It depends on how connected you are to a difficult person. In my disputes with this neighbor I observe her awful disrespect for the other owners. Maybe she’s bipolar, or a master manipulator. They have to dictate every single act around here. My diagnosis of her is that she is batshit crazyl

 

[Sideways]

Yeah, good point

In your case? I totally get the cynicism towards mental health professionals claiming a monopoly on diagnosing people with mental illness. Because in your case, for a really long time, incorrect diagnosis from those who should have known better, really made your life difficult (putting it mildly). So yeah, why should it just be the ‘qualified elite’ getting to use these terms?

But that’s not the end of your story. Because finally getting the right diagnosis (complex PTSD), has changed your life in a really phenomenal way, and set you on a path to healing that you probably never dared to think possible for a reallg long time.

It’s also impacted relationships with people around you, yeah? Understanding your dad is an aspie, for example. Doesn’t make him suddenly a great dad, forgive everything he’s ever done, or fix everything. But understanding the precise illness and what’s going on for him changes the way you relate to him (if I’m hearing you right).

Mental health diagnosis is a really powerful thing. When the professionals fk it up, it can have devastating consequences, and you’ve experienced some of the very worst of that first hand. Getting it right? Can be similarly life-changing.

If nothing else? That seems to suggest to me that we should err on the side of caution. Mental illness labels aren’t something to throw around lightly, or without the full load of information required to make that call.

And while our abusers don’t probably deserve the benefit of that? Attitudes towards mental illness are impacted when we use labels, correctly or incorrectly. Getting it right matters.

Hope you’re travelling ok, this is a confronting topic.

 

[mumstheword]

Here is the DSM V criteria:
https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/courses/materials/Narc.Pers.DSM.pdf
It doesn't say abusive anywhere.

The criteria for the DSM V is on the right. There was a discussion to throw out NPD as a personality disorder but they left it in. I found numerous youtube videos and blogs describing what the author thought was NPD, but they described their perception of what NPD is. They had no qualifications to speak on this. You would think the world is crawling with evil, abusive, horrific people if you read and watch all this unsubstantiated verbage.



Hmm, yes, it is. Abusive is also fine. Everyone here, including myself has suffered trauma that led to PTSD. We know what trauma is. I was raised with a schizo-affective brother who beat me every day. Was he a narcissist? No, he was horribly abusive, but that doesn't make one a narcissist.



This is what I mean. You don't have to make up a mental illness for abusive people.


It's a rant. I said that twice. It's not a knee-jerk reaction. What caused you to believe it was? I've been thinking about this for years, really. How is that knee-jerk? When other people put their business on a forum, it is no longer their business.

I think the bottom line is that calling your abuser a narcissist makes it seem worse. It's not worse, but you assume other people know how bad your abuse was, and what kind. Gaslighting is not on the DSM for NPD. You may have been gaslighted, I have, but again, it is gaslighting, not NPD.

Why not just say abusive?

Why not let people say what the hell they want in an anonymous site.
Haven't they been through hell enough to do that?
Your emoting about words that you assign meaning to.
They are emoting about experiences and victimization they have had.
They are talking about particular types of abuse. Who knows the history? It's not for me to judge, I would rather have compassion and read between the lines, than get caught up on whether I think they are using "the correct" (in my estimation) words.

I'm Autistic and do you think people know what that means? No, mostly they THINK Stuff that's a long way from reality, based on what they've heard from the media.

Do they bother to read books about it and research? Mostly, no. I know no one but myself that does that.

Same with Narcissistic abuse. Same with psychopathy. These are "special interests" of mine.

Do I get upset if people have the wrong idea about my Autism? No, it's, pretty much to be expected.

Labels are useful, but only if people understand the parameters, and most people don't.

Why not ask question of these labellers of NDP? That way you have a better idea of where they're coming from and you can debate the ligitimacy of their claims, if you see fit, instead of wasting emotional energy on other hurting people's choice of words.

And one last question, how many books on this kind of abuse have you read? I can recommend a number of them, if you want to arm yourself with more information. After all, thats all pdocs do anyway.

One last thing. Labels NEVER fully encapsulate the complexity of personality and often lines between diagnosis are blurred. The original writers of the DSM manual never intended it to be used as gospel (see Ron Jonsons "The Psychopath Check List" for proof of this statement). So at best these labels are approximate guestimations, and they do get it wrong, sometimes a lot (as is in my case), so, I just urge people to research and THINK FOR YOURSELF.

 

[mumstheword]

In your case? I totally get the cynicism towards mental health professionals claiming a monopoly on diagnosing people with mental illness. Because in your case, for a really long time, incorrect diagnosis from those who should have known better, really made your life difficult (putting it mildly). So yeah, why should it just be the ‘qualified elite’ getting to use these terms?

But that’s not the end of your story. Because finally getting the right diagnosis (complex PTSD), has changed your life in a really phenomenal way, and set you on a path to healing that you probably never dared to think possible for a reallg long time.

It’s also impacted relationships with people around you, yeah? Understanding your dad is an aspie, for example. Doesn’t make him suddenly a great dad, forgive everything he’s ever done, or fix everything. But understanding the precise illness and what’s going on for him changes the way you relate to him (if I’m hearing you right).

Mental health diagnosis is a really powerful thing. When the professionals fk it up, it can have devastating consequences, and you’ve experienced some of the very worst of that first hand. Getting it right? Can be similarly life-changing.

If nothing else? That seems to suggest to me that we should err on the side of caution. Mental illness labels aren’t something to throw around lightly, or without the full load of information required to make that call.

And while our abusers don’t probably deserve the benefit of that? Attitudes towards mental illness are impacted when we use labels, correctly or incorrectly. Getting it right matters.

Hope you’re travelling ok, this is a confronting topic.

Thanks for the understanding and compassion @Sideways. So far the only correct diagnosis I have gotten was PTSD; developmental and adult trauma, is what the Belmont pysch called it. But she wouldn't consider the High function autism that I know I have. According to her, I'm "too warm". I've been reading up and consulting on Autism central forum and she's just plain got it wrong and you are right, I'M FRUSTRATED To be not listened to, and to be fair she isn't an Autism specialist, she's a trauma specialist .

My Dad has Aspergers, my dad's other daughter, her kids, one of mine is not Aspergers but special needs Autistic and if I want the legit "right" to call myself Aspie or Autistic, I will have to pay somewhere between a grand and two. And go back to Brisbane to Tony Attwood's clinic.So I'll have to cancel my hospital cover to save for that.

And I'm still living in ice junkie hell, here in nimbin, with massive screaming fits from neighbors (various different one's) on a, pretty much daily basis.

So yeah, all the topics, narcy types, diagnosticians, being irritated, are setting off my own "rant" buttoms.

Sorry if I m coming on too strong, so arrogant, too emotional, too intolerant and hypocritical.

Plus I'm on edge coz a cyclone is really close, and the wind and rain are a little unnerving at the moment.

 

[Dana1010]

Also, seriously?

I am not abusive

I have been manipulative in the past

This fear is being covered with degrading others...

Manipulating and degrading don't equal abusing? Way to split an effing hair.

 

[blackemerald1]

For example, someone earlier questioned the credentials of Robert Hare;

No, not really - I do think though if one is going to rely on stats it's safer to have more than one source particularly since the only source given is making a living out writing and interpreting his own data.

Language is often used in a sloppy and non precise way.

Yes. True. Narcissist and psychotic have become trendy words. I've mentioned this already?

Psychopathy is dangerous in most cases

Really pleased you put a 'most' in that sentence ^. Because there is a portion of this mental health group who are not dangerous.

However, all abusers have a 100% strike rate on the dangerous score for me even if they never raise a hand.

Why not ask question of these labellers of NDP? That way you have a better idea of where they're coming from and you can debate the ligitimacy of their claims, if ypu see fit, instead of wasting emotional energy on other hurting people's choice of words.

The OP did (refer to her first post) and was called a Narcissist for doing so. :wtf:

 

[Friday]

The OP did (refer to her first post) and was called a Narcissist for doing so. :wtf:

Exactly. Where is the 10,000 like button???

People so intent on bonking everyone they dislike or disagree with their magical narcissism wand that Bonk! And you’re a narcissist, Bonk! And you’re a narcissist, Bonk! And YOU And YOU And YOU!!! Bonk! Bonk! Bonk! Narcissists! You’re ALL narcissists! All of you!

:rolleyes:

 

[Sideways]

And I'm still living in ice junkie hell,

Relate to that - housing commission. Awesome. I think I’m the only sober person in my complex. Ice in particular makes people seem pretty psychopathic, especially when they need a fix. Fking awful stuff.

 

[Dana1010]

Because there is a portion of this mental health group who are not dangerous.

To be honest, I don't know for sure that it isn't dangerous in all cases. I would say anyone who meets the diagnosis is dangerous by definition.

How about we turn the tables here and get you to define "dangerous?"

How can you say for sure that some people diagnosed with psychopathy "aren't dangerous?"

The traits would be:

Lack of conscience
Lack of empathy
Callous
Glib
Dishonest
Manipulative
Willing to use others for ones own gain

These are actual diagnostic criteria.

So tell me: Is this person dangerous or not?