The seeming fashion for labelling people toxic, narcissistic etc

[Mee]

Without doing anything and a due process that would put anyone in the same circumstances, personality this or that, behind bars?

Yeah, the first one to object that.

(Mis) Labeling & deciding on rounding up someones for a set of traits, not even acts mind you, is dangerous as f*ck.

I think I believe aspects of both these but in a different way again.

I think we ALL have capacity to express all traits and emotions. Each one of us. Inhibition of any of them to any extreme is unhealthy ( I think that some of this in fact might have made me more susceptible to finally developing PTSD when I did and not on occasions earlier in life). Inexpressible totally is the stuff like sociopathy ( I am reading the sociopath next door right now but I have no expertise at all on this) .

I think that it’s really dangerous to decide someone is ‘x’ because we see how they behave. I have wondered if course about the mental pathology of the harmful people in my life , and I will again. I still do not think it’s a healthy exercise because it’s both none of my business and their motivation ( as opposed to my interpretation of it) is something I can never know.

Just as when I was reactive ( for example in the three to six weeks first traumatised I did not behave well often) it would be easy for an unsympathetic observer, or victim of my reactivity , to judge me ‘narcissistic’ .

Even different countries can have differences in expression that can appear more or less self involved to people from other cultures.

 

[mylunareclipse]

It’s not about a behavior for three weeks though. Again, I think if you have been abused by a sociopathic narcissist you would know once you know. The final understanding of what is happening to you and the labeling is oh so powerful and healing. It’s not about just labeling certain behaviors or traits. Maybe some people overuse these labels, but for some of us the labels were important to make sense of the abuse. I am not talking about using these terms in general because one person acts a certain way certain times - we are indeed all capable of all behaviors at times - I am talking about truly abusive sociopathic narcissists.

 

[Ronin]

I am talking about truly abusive sociopathic narcissists.

Thing tho, those are not degrees to cruelty people around use it as, so much.

They are diagnostic categories, not yardsticks to suffering.

How cruel someone is, and how damaging others, and in what ways? Does not direct correlate to any of their disorders.

 

[Sideways]

Again, I think if you have been abused by a sociopathic narcissist you would know once you know.

Disagree (from a person who was abused by a person who was pretty messed up).

Why did he do those things to me? Maybe knowing would be “healing”.

But slapping some likely inaccurate label on him just to make me feel better? Nup. That’s just playing into mental health stigma. I know his behaviour pretty durn well, still doesn’t put me in a position where I could “diagnose” him.

 

[Mee]

It’s not about a behavior for three weeks though. Again, I think if you have been abused by a sociopathic narcissist you would know once you know. .

We are all here with PTSD. Many of us from similar causes. I still don’t know what the motivation was. I never will. I might decide I do, ( there is obviously motivation for my current book choice) but I will never know. To decide I did would be wrong.

I am not saying you don’t know. I am saying I never will; many cases are not ‘obvious’ I think. Even professionals make errors however, I know I will not have the certainty to make that call.

 

[mylunareclipse]

How cruel someone is, and how damaging others, and in what ways? Does not direct correlate to any of their disorders.

I didn’t mention cruelty. I just mentioned abuse. I didn’t mention how damaging either. The pattern of behavior is what correlates.

 

[Sideways]

@wishforescape - maybe something that might be more helpful to healing (idk, it was for me):

I stead of using labels for my abuser, which one of my earlier T’s insisted was essential for my healing and acceptance, what i’ve now found far more healing is finding appropriate labels for what was done to me. Labels for the abuse I endured.

I could tell you he was a psychopathic and sadistic pedophile. Certainly the last 2 labels are accurate. But the first one? Nothing more than a guess.

What is more helpful to both me, and anyone I’m trying to help understand what I went through, are using words like ritualistic, sexual abuse, sadism...those are terms that describe what I endured. It leaves you with some sort of idea about the kind of person who would do that (to a child). But more importantly, it imparts helpful information about where I’m coming from, what my experience was actually like.

Would that be helpful? Finding those labels can be difficult. You’ll see in other threads going on right now that attaching those labels, of “what would you call what I endured”, and see that acceptance of those things is incredibly confronting. Challenging.

But more importantly, heading towards an acceptance of our trauma, our experience, our suffering, rather than “who my perpetrator was”...

 

[mylunareclipse]

We are all here with PTSD. Many of us from similar causes. I still don’t know what the motivation was. I never will. I might decide I do, ( there is obviously motivation for my current book choice) but I will never know. To decide I did would be wrong

I don’t think this pattern of abuse is about motivation necessarily. It’s just a behavioral pattern that just is. It’s how the sociopath/narcissist relates to the world around him/her. Perhaps even not through fault of their own. I actually even have empathy for the person that abused me in me in this way. I understand why that are the way they are. I might have been the same if raised in similar circumstances. But the fact is that still labeling the behavior helped me heal and protect myself, and most of all stop feeling crazy.

 

[Gs172003]

I think it's all a sliding scale but there are boundaries in other words you can be way out in the edge of the bell shaped curve in terms of behavior but you are still in the same population.

When you fall outside the curve you're no longer a member, you are no longer in the group you're something else.

A violent abusive person can be that and feel remorse and even reform get help, admit they're wrong, stop drinking whatever.

A sociopath is something else. No conscience, no remorse. Both are dangerous but the sociopath is truly a monster and belongs in a cage because the rest of us are not safe from them.

I could be wrong but I do believe there are more than one diagnoses that include no conscience, no remorse.

 

[mylunareclipse]

I totally agree with you @Sideways.
For me I guess the circumstances were a little different as this persons behavior towards me was just emotional/mental abuse. So the behavior cannot fall under another category, just narcissistic behavior. Because that’s just how this person was. His behavior didn’t even cause PTSD for me, but it left me home unable to leave the house as I truly felt I was going crazy! Besides the fact that he turned so many people against me. For a long time I literally thought i was going crazy but once I read what gaslighting is it was like ?.
I can see how for what happened to you perhaps labeling psychopath or not might not matter, as actually him being a pedophile and abusing you trumps all other labels no need to use them.

 

[Ronin]

there are more than one diagnoses that include no conscience, no remorse.

Thing is though, hurting others does not require that... Lacking conscience, lacking remorse.

& I dont even know how to word how ordinary and psychologically normal wide swath of people that hurt me/mine very much, were.

The whole The pathology is needed, or even a prerequisite, to harming others, thing drives me bonkers.

 

[Teasel]

Just to say, I can totally understand victims of abuse finding info which describes what they experienced invaluable. I know I did. But I can't swallow the diagnosing / labelling people as NPD or what have you. I mean I remember the first time I read descriptions of narcissistic behaviour on some pop psychology website, it was an enormous OMG he does this or that but it didn't make me think ok so he's a narcissist - a) because plenty of the descriptions didn't fit, and b) I can't know why he did what he did.

Even the lundy Bancroft book which has also been extraordinarily helpful to me. I still can't buy every thing he says wholesale without question. And I still can't know what's in Mr's head or why he does what he does.