Can you undo the desensitization and conditioning to violence?

[someo]

Hi everyone,

Generally I'm doing really well nowadays but there's one thing that bothers me a bit and I have difficulty finding information on the subject. So I would like to know if anyone here has experiences on this or knows where I could find information. I think I will bring this up with my therapist (we have talked about the subject a lot of times but never in full depth) also when we meet on Tuesday but I have a feeling that I could still use some info and personal experiences.

Since this topic is about violence it's worth mentioning I'm male, not to say that it's gender specific, but I mean testosterone and gender expectations do play a certain role in many cases.

So basically my trauma history begins at age six when the sexual abuse started (I was always raped, happened occasionally until I was 10 and we moved to a different city). That's the biggest trauma, but then I was also heavily bullied in school between ages 8-10 and 14-15, which included physical violence. Then there are other more minor traumas, like I very nearly got myself killed doing extreme sports (not martial arts in this case).

So yeah lots of trauma and my mental health completely broke down when I was 17, but now five years later I'm doing well (thanks to therapy).

Deep down I'm a very sensitive person, and when I used violence for the first time when I was eight to defend myself from the bullies it was heart breaking for me. Well the bullying ended but I guess I felt unsafe for understandable reasons (though I had very little recollection of any traumas at that point, thanks to dissociation) so I took up Karate for two years and became fairly good at it. We did certain types of conditioning but I still wasn't even 100% sure I would be able to hit anyone with force even if attacked.

But then the bullying started again at age 14, which made my ptsd really bad as it triggered past traumas. From the first day there was pressure on me to take violent revenge, but in the end I didn't because the bullies threatened to report it to the police (some tough guys!). The violent fantasies started to emerge and I started becoming more and more numb to violence, but I remember one turning point, which was when one of the bullies threatened to kill me at knifepoint. He wanted me to do what he said but in the end I basically told him to go f*ck himself and threatened to beat him up, and after seeing in my eyes that I meant it and was about to attack him he withdrew.

After this event I guess deep down I was really afraid (though I did not admit it to myself) and started to improve my martial arts skills and started to really mentally condition/prepare myself for life and death situations, and to the possibility of seriously injuring or even killing someone if I was attacked.

Well I did not know yet if I would be capable of actually using serious violence, but then at age 16 I ended up defending two guys who were about to be attacked and ended up fighting two street fighter types alone (the other one was an experienced competitive boxer), long story short I took some damage too since I didn't expect the other guy to take part in the fight and he surprised me from outside my field of view. But the main point is that I punched both of them once with the kind of force that I knew could have very well resulted in lethal injury (like i.e. I completely knocked out the other guy, who then literally flew to the ground). And when the other one got me to ground, I was just about to crush his throat when the thought entered my mind, that I could try to de-escalate (which worked in the end, thank god!) since we knew each other so it wasn't about killing me. Had I not known them, I'm 100% sure I would have kept going.

What happened after this event was that I thought I had to condition and train myself even more since they could have gotten me. And that's what I did, I even went to practice Krav Maga for a while.

But yeah back to today. So nowadays I realise I don't need to be ready to kill or anything like that. But I'm still very much desensitized to all violence. And when I get triggered I always go into fight mode and if I'm really triggered (luckily that's more and more rare), I want to hurt people.

I'm not that worried about hurting anyone unless I'm threatened or attacked, but I do worry that if someone e.g. threatens or provokes me in a way that gets me extremely triggered, I might lose most or all control and end up seriously hurting someone, up to the point of killing someone... I mean I'm a big guy and I'm conditioned to react with maximum force and use the most destructive techniques, hit the weakest spots in the face etc. After doing lots of extreme sports in my youth, I also know how to turn fear and adrenaline into action. For the average guy, if I lose control completely, he might very well be dead in like 10-20 seconds. I mean the average guy without martial arts or serious fighting experience is like a rag doll for me...

Basically I don't use alcohol or drugs at all anymore, which is really good in this sense and also means since I very rarely go to bars or am on the streets on night hours, the risk of running into a violent confrontations is low. But it's still there. And honestly I don't want to hurt anyone in any way, and the last thing I want is to ruin my life with any legal consequences. Of course I will defend myself if actually attacked, but I would want to just use minimum force.

Also, I just don't feel like violence is that bad on an emotional level? Or this is one thing, at times I feel like it, but then some switch like turns on, especially if I'm triggered, and I no longer feel that way. Like I don't know, maybe this is the issue in fact, but intellectually I always know that even hitting someone in the body is wrong, but I mean like emotionally maybe even most of the time I feel like e.g. hitting someone in the stomach without causing any injuries is like, harmless, feels more like something to laugh about? I know it isn't harmless, but it feels that way. I just don't get any emotional connection to that kind of violence. Only violence that causes serious injury or death feels wrong, and I think even that can change if I'm super triggered.

But yeah one thing is that normally I'm really empathetic, up to the point where it's no longer beneficial in any way, but there's like a switch that turns of all empathy towards anyone who triggers me in any way. This "switch" gets activated very often, but if I'm triggered, it happens automatically. After that it just feels more like the person is a threatening object, not human in any way.

I'm just worried there is no way to undo all this, or even a major part of it? I mean most of the time my ptsd symptoms are mild or non-existent, and this hasn't changed that much still. Therapist also doesn't think that its ever possible to completely eliminate ptsd in my case, so surely threatening situations will always get me triggered.

I just really don't know what to think about this in the end, I just know that I don't want to hurt anyone deep down.

 

[HealingMama]

Talk to your martial arts instructor about this. I bet they have dealt with this a lot.

 

[Ronin]

IME, undo, no. Already used it to survive, help others survive, + how it feels in your gut / that deep down reaction is different.

But redirect, channel to something else, control tightly? Totally.

That you even ponder about it, to this depth, is good. Hold on to that thoughtfulness.

And? Work on those triggers, use of minimal force, not max.
You trained yourself to go for the max.
Train for the other, choose different.
Cos that reaction is something can do a lot with, not inevitable.

 

[someo]

Hey thanks for very insightful replies! First of all, I do not currently practice martial arts so there's no instructor to talk to.

And Ronin is right - it can't be fully undone, maybe some parts will improve over time or maybe not, but it's not necessary after all...

Because I had a walk right after posting this. And I realised that there are certain (albeit few) situations where I do feel even heavily triggered but do not feel any need to act out violently. It's all up to how I perceive deep down how I should behave/respond in a certain situation. Now that I am no longer full of fear all the time, I was already able to just simply change my perception of how to respond, to instead of responding with violence and max force, to using de-escalation and then minimal force.

The thing just felt impossible because still a while ago changing this would have been impossible, simply because I was so afraid and angry deep down. I just felt like I would need to always use max force because I was so afraid, and also the anger prevented me from changing these thinking patterns.

This is actually a huge thing and I feel so much better, because I think this has been causing me a lot of guilt and shame and occasional episodes of fear and anxiety over the years.

But yeah, if I start feeling like I still have a problem with this or the issues return, I just have to work on it more and maybe practice more de-escalation and minimal force techniques. I think the main point is I just have to feel like I'm not risking my safety in a major way if I choose to go that way. And the reality is, if you don't de-escalate, that's the best way to ensure you are risking your safety.

 

[Whirlwind]

Also, I just don't feel like violence is that bad on an emotional level?

Have you ever looked into "Counter-phobia" (CP)? It relates to aggression/PTSD etc. Might be an interesting read if you haven't heard about it.

A few things you said resonated with me and it was something I was diagnosed with as a by-product of my PTSD.

Interesting post,

Whirlwind

 

[someo]

Oh man! Counter-phobia is exactly what I have in so many areas! I just didn't know the word for it!

I mean it has gotten better in many ways, but I always have a need to sort of put myself in the traumatic situation again, usually just through my imagination or at times I have definitely done that stuff too like with extreme sports. I think the fear of death is one thing, and before I got to therapy I have repeatedly put myself into situations where my life is in some or even great danger. Adrenaline was a driving factor though too, but once I became more self-aware I started thinking the main driving factor was like what now sounds like counter-phobia...

And same has definitely been true with violence in so many ways. Like this is hard to say, but after that street fight, I had this strong feeling that I needed to kill someone (I emphasise I never had any intention of doing so!)... But after I processed the trauma related to the street fight, that need completely vanished.

Whirlwind do you have some resource or e.g. books that you would recommend?

 

[Whirlwind]

I struggle with counter phobia (CP) despite despite being female. On the bright side my calm/comfort with intense situations made my career.

But I am drawn towards situations partly because I feel I can handle it (and I can) but why the heck am I there? Because I am so noble and helpful?....LOL or maybe because I like it. That is an honest and embarrassing admission.

I have repeatedly put myself into situations where my life is in some or even great danger. Adrenaline was a driving factor though too

Yea, I had to question my situations and in talking with my therapist I came to realize how I had minimized scary situations and therapist helped me back up a bit and tackle the why the heck was I even there?

I do channel it as much as I can and I do recognize (better) and before I put myself in situations sometime I can "abort" the mission realizing I am heading there because I (enjoy the intensity etc) not because I am noble, LOL

Unfortunately I have not found great resources specific to CP but help via a therapist and indirectly via resources like below.

What I have gleaned is the CP is a way of controlling anxiety. I was exposed to violence and it was just a part of life from as far back as I remember. My CP waxes and wanes with what is happening in my life/current trauma and it notably came back with a vengeance after I was re-traumatized.

In general just getting therapy calmed it down so that helped. My awareness helps. I do not believe my adventurous spirit is just a side effect of my CP. But looking back I can see where adventure drifted into unnecessary and that part is the CP in my opinion.

With my CP comes a detachment, as I said it has benefited me in a number of situations and professionally. Oddly when I am healing and life is very calm things that I wouldn't blink an eye at actually bother me a bit. Honestly, I don't like it I prefer my detachment.

Have you ever checked out Richard Grannon? He has great you-tube was a martial arts and also does PTSD. I like him a lot and he has touched on the CP subject and its trauma origins. He also talks about getting to the core of trauma related and digging down to the emotions which are also flashbacks. That's another aspect to the CP - flashbacks. I can say Grannon's flashback material helped me a lot along with Pete Walker. So I have tackled some of my CP indirectly but it helped.

I wish I could offer more but I do think I know CP when I "see it" as in your case many things rang familiar. I would share more but not on this public forum, hope something here helps.

Take care,

Whirlwind

 

[grit]

I find your articulation of the problem quite refreshing. I mean it is one thing to be unconscious about physical move esp aggression but it is another to be so concoius of it and yet unable to control. I have violence in my past and I am interested in how many ways aggression/rage and its bff hatred can work together to destroy our lives.
I have a lot of questions about your post.
First I really can feel the amount of energy but requires to hold back this side of you in the sOciety.

I think you may need and honestly and i am throwing about this a psych education so intense that you will have to integrate this part of you in either creative way, comedy, or sports or some other sublimation.
The cost of aggression is quite high esp for a male. All these triggers will not save you if you commit act of violence against another. Relationships may become a minefield.
I think the fact your left brain is super aware is a bonus but you may be unaware of parts of the right brain.
For me to eliviate some of this my husband and I rough play....we use language a lot to mitigate any crazy boundary cross....but luckily this area was the first area I have come woke about.
Some men groups are rally good for this.
I hope by talking about it you find reprieve. It is heavy burden to carry around.

 

[someo]

It's been like over half a year since I posted this, just wanted to get back to this. I did still get thoughts like what I described when I got angry but in reality I don't think I would have acted violently except in self-defence, since things have started to repair themselves.

But yeah basically I think this thing resolved itself along with my ptsd, I wouldn't have met the diagnostic criteria at any point during the past four months I mean. Generally speaking I just started to realise that the likelihood that someone tries to severely injure me is pretty darn low here in Finland which is one of the safest countries on earth, as t has been saying for the past two years.

I think it comes a lot down to your perception of different situations, if you are constantly assuming that every threatening situation is going to end up with someone trying to kill or rape you, is it really that strange that you would be ready to severely injure or even kill that person?

I mean it's not just the conscious level but it came from somewhere deeper, probably relating to the childhood experiences. Specifically I think there might have been a perception somewhere that if you risk losing control to any physically threatening situation, the worst case scenario will automatically happen. Because it happened way too many times. I mean the problem was de facto the perception of loss of control, I would have been 100% fine with someone yelling at me and cursing me (or even attacking me in some manner that didn't seem like a big threat), the loss of control was my fear. Which I have come pretty much to terms with btw.

But yeah what got me writing is that I got interested in martial arts again and practiced some techniques I know for the first time in like four months. What struck me was how powerful my punches and kicks were even as I haven't trained them in months and am physically very unfit having very likely had COVID-19 two months ago.

It's like I had been completely detached from actual violence, I mean I would never want to use that stuff on anyone unless I'm forced to. I would very much now rather e.g. let someone rob me than attack the robber. It's hard to put this into words but well, I guess I just don't want to hurt anyone anymore. I mean using that stuff causes actual serious damage to the human body, not just some imaginary damage. I can't put it in words but I don't think I felt like the potential damage I would cause would have been real. There was just some huge amount of detachment.

I'm still a pretty counter-phobic when it comes to e.g. movie violence, but not really with real life violence. I guess the main thing was the severe detachment, the use of violence just didn't seem real at some level. That's basically how it's felt the few times I've been forced to use violence, it's like the people attacking me are objects that are trying to hurt me. The idea of punching them and how it also felt in reality was like hitting a punching bag. But it no longer feels that way.

 

[Justmehere]

That's wonderful! Well done on the good work to resolve your symptoms.

 

[Rainman8772]

I mean I would never want to use that stuff on anyone unless I'm forced to. I would very much now rather e.g. let someone rob me than attack the robber.

With this you really can’t answer how you will react. Once you are in full fight/flight mode you will resort to training or will freeze or run. It’s good to recognize what you can do but in the heat of the moment your cognitive thought will disappear sending you into autopilot. It is the same way soldiers will run towards bullets or try to use something for cover that in no way can protect them from fire. When your heart rate hits 175+ cognitive thought is gone in a fight/flight response.

Great that you are asymptomatic hopefully it continues. Just remember there is not a cure and symptoms can always return.

 

[Ronin]

^^ This.

Alongside, if movie violence makes me think of real life / set me off, even where I know the movies themselves are nonsense and made up? I just go watch cartoons. Or nature docus. Or something that won't get me thinking of real life where I'm busy living my calmest and well behaved, new baby-friendly self.