News Worldwide impact of the novel coronavirus (covid-19)

[Justmehere]

The 1968 pandemic of the Hong Kong flu may be worth looking into. A million people died and nothing was shut down. Adjusted for population growth, it would be an even larger number of deaths of the current population if it hit the world today. We are not near that level of outbreak.

Again- seriously glad I don't live in the states. I mean you get that every other nation is laughing at you right? at the same time they're crying?

Not really new with the pandemic, is it? Maybe amplified now... but seriously, the nation was founded on a bunch of rebels rejecting authoritarian government and stating we want freedom from much governance.

“Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty.” - Thomas Jefferson

It was expected that the US would be uh, lively. It’s always been this way and unless we see true tyrant that somehow manages to suppress it, it will continue, with all its benefits and flaws. In fact, in the face of the real or imagined threat of tyranny, the messiness, in a way, of the nation increases on purpose as part of what should stop a tyrant.

Here’s the thing... the US is not uniquely the worst mess ever with covid 19 management. It’s putting wayyy too much focus on one nation and completely ignoring the plight of the people in Syria, India, Yemen. Kenya. Etc. My goodness what’s happening in Yemen with covid 19 is so heartbreaking. Or Brazil or Ecuador where the bodies are piling up in the streets. Or refugee camps...

The US has horribly failed at early management of the pandemic, but some take it to suggest that the US would have been able to stop the current level of outbreak if only this or that had been done. It wasn’t possible. It was never going to happen.

It’s like the issue of flattening the curve. Many are expecting this is about lowering the total number of infections of over the entire pandemic in a nation, but in many nations, it’s not and it’s never been about lowering the total number but the total number being the same, spread out.

Covid is here to stay. It’s not going away unless there is herd immunity through vaccine or infection. There is an extremely low chance of getting a vaccine implemented worldwide prior to much of the world population getting infected. The US is one of the first hot spots, but more will happen unless nations continue to keep borders locked down. It may be slow and super drawn out for other nations - which is good, because it buys time for vaccine or treatments to come online.

As for the US, it’s been a mess... but the belief that many have (not referring to anyone specific here) that the virus could have been stopped by this or that amazing management technique is not really supported by the science.

In congressional testimony, in medical webcasts and in private discussions with health officials, they warned that the unique features of this flu-like virus made it impossible to control, and that the administration must use any time that containment measures might buy to prepare the country for an inevitable outbreak. "Doomed from the Start.” Why Trump's Coronavirus Response Was Never Going to Work

China didn’t stop the virus even by welding people into their homes to die. They still keep finding infections and new outbreaks. They didn’t stop the virus even with the strongest and most coordinated/organized response. After New Coronavirus Outbreaks, China Imposes Wuhan-Style Lockdown

While critiquing really serious flaws in pandemic responses, of which there are many in the US, so many, I think we also have to be realistic about what is humanly possible in terms of control of the virus in the first place.

Also, there is another factor to consider. I’ve lived outside the US and inside the US. News internationally (and nationally) about the on the ground realities in the US is not ah, fully accurate. No, I’m not crying “fake news” but rather “if it bleeds it leads.” News in other nations makes us look like we all eat Mickey Ds. I don’t know many people who do. News makes it look like people are dying in the streets and it’s utter chaos here. The on the ground reality in my area is that the response is fairly well organized and calm, even if it’s not all agreed upon, and the type and level of response varies around the nation.

 

[Mee]

The 1968 pandemic of the Hong Kong flu may be worth looking into. A million people died and nothing was shut down. Adjusted for population growth, it would be an even larger number of deaths of the current population if it hit the world today. We are not near that level of outbreak.


Not really new with the pandemic, is it? Maybe amplified now... but seriously, the nation was founded on a bunch of rebels rejecting authoritarian government and stating we want freedom from much governance.

“Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty.” - Thomas Jefferson

It was expected that the US would be uh, lively. It’s always been this way and unless we see true tyrant that somehow manages to suppress it, it will continue, with all its benefits and flaws. In fact, in the face of the real or imagined threat of tyranny, the messiness, in a way, of the nation increases on purpose as part of what should stop a tyrant.

Here’s the thing... the US is not uniquely the worst mess ever with covid 19 management. It’s putting wayyy too much focus on one nation and completely ignoring the plight of the people in Syria, India, Yemen. Kenya. Etc. My goodness what’s happening in Yemen with covid 19 is so heartbreaking. Or Brazil or Ecuador where the bodies are piling up in the streets. Or refugee camps...

The US has horribly failed at early management of the pandemic, and even good parts of current management, but some take it to suggest that the US would have been able to stop the current level of outbreak if only this or that had been done. It wasn’t possible. It was never going to happen.

It’s like the issue of flattening the curve. Many are expecting this is about lowering the total number of infections of over the entire pandemic in a nation, but in many nations, it’s not and it’s never been about lowering the total number but the total number being the same, spread out.

Covid is here to stay. It’s not going away unless there is herd immunity through vaccine or infection. There is an extremely low chance of getting a vaccine implemented worldwide prior to much of the world population getting infected. The US is one of the first hot spots, but more will happen unless nations continue to keep borders locked down. It may be slow and super drawn out for other nations - which is good, because it buys time for vaccine or treatments to come online.

As for the US, it’s been a mess... but the belief that some have (not so much specific to anyone here) the virus could have been stopped by this or that amazing management technique is not really supported by the science.


China didn’t stop the virus even by welding people into their homes to die. They still keep finding infections and new outbreaks. They didn’t stop the virus even with the strongest and most coordinated/organized response. After New Coronavirus Outbreaks, China Imposes Wuhan-Style Lockdown

While critiquing really serious flaws in pandemic responses, of which there are many in the US, so many, I think we also have to be realistic about what is humanly possible in terms of control of the virus in the first place.

Also, there is another factor to consider. I’ve lived outside the US and in the US. News internationally (and nationally) about the on the ground realities in the US is not ah, fully accurate. No, I’m not crying “fake news” but rather “if it bleeds it leads.” News in other nations makes us look like we all eat Mickey Ds. I don’t know many people who do. News makes it look like people are dying in the streets and it’s utter chaos here. The on the ground reality in my area is that the response is fairly well organized even if it’s not all agreed upon and the type and level of response varies around the nation.

Most of this is really valid. I think comparing US to countries with significant other issues of lower wealth, high level of civil unrest ( to put it mildly) or poor infrastructure is as misinformative as to compare it solely with countries like South Korea and Singapore- who seem to have handled it very well .


I think US and UK do have some similarities in their failures and successes.

I’d even argue Sweden has a different kind of success Despite Very high rate per capita in their consistency and transparency In approach and that the US and UK cannot claim.


I do not say this with ‘hatred’ or animosity but rather from the point of view that only rationally considering our own flaws and successes can be real appreciation and through that is where respect can be developed. Blind disparagement or praise isn’t fruitful- which really is where I strongly agree with you.

 

[joeylittle]

Canada just upgraded mask wearing from:
"meh, i dunno. wear a mask maybe if you want to...?" to
"hey guys, i think everyone should wear a mask as much as possible when they go out."

This is the most Canadian framing of this that I could possibly imagine :) I really am fond of Canada-speak, and my Canadian friends. Miss them.

Since all this got serious mid March? I have not been able to find even 1 hand sanitizer, Lysol or Clorox wipes, lysol spray disinfectant. I even tried on line and it's impossible.(so far have gotten by with what we have)

Check your local distilleries. A number of them across the country (I think you're in the US?) have started producing ethanol-based hand sanitizer products to CDC standards.

Useful clickable link of US distilleries making the stuff, check your location if you want to.

People just gotta remember that there are parameters w/sanitizer....have to thoroughly wet every area of the hand with it (just like w/soap/water) and work it until it's evaporated, can't wipe off the excess.
Most people don't use it correctly.

(Not saying that's you, @brat17 - it's just easy to go too fast+not get full coverage, esp. since it's invisible).

 

[whiteraven]

I just found out that our church (UU) is closed to congregational worship and all in-house activities through December. At least. The UUA has recommended churches not open until May of next year.

I am in the process of becoming a member (again) here and the primary reason I wanted to was so that I'd have community where I have none now. But also so that I could go somewhere with other people and worship (that's really a bad word but I can't think of a better one) without having to talk to anyone if I don't want.

Not happy.

 

[Freida]

I just found out that our church (UU) is closed to congregational worship and all in-house activities through December. At least. The UUA has recommended churches not open until May of next year.

trump just did a proclamation saying churches are essential businesses and they should all open immediately across the nation. Not sure if he has the authority to do that but he's really pushing for it. so hundreds of people in tiny spaces - nothing could go wrong there :rolleyes:

Around here they have been really creative - they are holding sessions in cars, or in large areas where everyone can stand apart but still each other. Maybe something like that could work to start for you?

 

[DharmaGirl]

I think we also have to be realistic about what is humanly possible in terms of control of the virus in the first place.

I never thought we were going "to beat" the virus. I know you weren't pointing me out, but I constantly remind folks that the virus hasn't gone anywhere that it might come back from, and locking down was just to keep the medical system from being overwhelmed. There has been so much bullshit passed off as information by all sorts of people that it's no wonder people are confused. I stopped caring about it or it would have driven me nuts. I wear a mask to protect others, I make sure to give people space, and I lightly follow the news. I just don't get how people believe this is a made up thing. It's global. It wasn't invented to take away our rights. Oh well, they are free to believe what they want. There is a virus. How bad it's going to get is directly related to our behavior, and we don't even know if having it gives immunity so I would think it would be in a person's self-interest to do their best to not spread it. Except for the president. He gets to spread it to whoever he wants, because he doesn't want to give reporters the satisfaction of seeing him in a mask. Really?

 

[Justmehere]

Most of this is really valid. I think comparing US to countries with significant other issues of lower wealth, high level of civil unrest ( to put it mildly) or poor infrastructure is as misinformative as to compare it solely with countries like South Korea and Singapore- who seem to have handled it very well .

South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and others have managed to somewhat slow the virus, but I hesitate to say they have handled it without serious problems. Additionally they have different cultures and pre-existing structures that facilitated such a containment. They have cultures that value conformity, community over the individual's rights, etc. They already had systems in place to track citizens in a way the US culture rejects from it's founding. It's unreasonable to expect that any nation, be it Yemen or the US, would be able to have a sudden entire societal overhaul overnight in culture, border management, citizen tracking, etc, to adjust to a pandemic that came on quite quickly.

It's also not been without their flaws. The societal shamming for covid 19 survivors in South Korea is heartbreaking and comes from the way they responded.

They are controlling the virus via publishing publicly extensive details of those infected to shame them into isolation and keep people away from them, and every place they have been, and anyone associated with them. It's leading to massive discrimination and shame issues for people who recover. People who are infected are having their personal movements and details about their lives published to everyone, and even long after they are no longer infectious, being horribly shamed and ostracized in a culture that highly values being part of the community. It's beginning to reduce people's willingness to even get texted for the virus, because if they test positive, their privacy is gone and they are at risk for very dangerous harassment and abuse. Criminals with covid 19 are threatening to tell health authorities they have been to their location or business and will only keep quiet about it if they are given money.

It's now at the point, some are saying...

Kim added: “I thought I only had to protect my health, but now I think there are other things more scary than the coronavirus.”
'More scary than coronavirus': South Korea's health alerts expose private lives

The means South Korea has used to control the virus has made people more fearful of their government and fellow citizens than the virus.

Was the outbreak halted in South Korea? No. It continues to spread. They are facing another wave now. They slowed it, but absolutely not stopping it. All this shaming and destruction of the lives of people who survive covid... and they did not stop the virus.
South Korea's new coronavirus outbreak should be a warning for the U.S.
The Coronavirus Guilt Trip
South Korea is reporting intimate details of COVID-19 cases: has it helped?

Since all this got serious mid March? I have not been able to find even 1 hand sanitizer, Lysol or Clorox wipes, lysol spray disinfectant. I even tried on line and it's impossible.(so far have gotten by with what we have) Before it hit hard, I did pay $60 on line for 10 KN95 masks. I mailed a couple to my daughter. My husband has already broken 2 of his. Would love to find a box of 50. On another note, my husband is a bit of hoarder and buys ahead. When nobody could find toilet paper, I checked out what we had. We had 73 rolls so we were set for awhile.

Shortages stink. It also shows how much the US usually works well. In many nations, shortages are normal life. In the US, it's jarring because it's new. None of these shortages warrants a lot of stress. The virus can also be killed with a cloth with soap on it as well as it can be killed with bleach wipes. It’s a very fragile virus. Contagious but super easy to destroy. Most TP shortages have been remedied or soon will be. Doubled up cloth masks are supposed to block 75-80 percent. Not at the level of n95 but pretty good. N95 masks have downsides. They can lead to issues with C02 inhalation building up, possibly causing a whole host of health issues. They are also designed for 1 time use for a very short time. Reusing is possible but complicated and if not done right, could increase chances of infection. If it’s right for you and your loved ones to use them, by all means, please do... but there is grounds to not fret if they can’t be found. In fact designs are being worked on now to reduce the CO2 inhalation problems and other issues being found with n95 masks and perhaps in time they will be more widely available.

 

[siniang]

Really useful summary post on FB

https://www.facebook.com/1701867958/posts/10207176669850715

 

[DharmaGirl]

Really useful summary post on FB

Yes, this should have been our mantra all along. I have calmed down a lot, and was even able to go shopping without it being any more stressful than it normally is. I've always thought that I would get it eventually, but I never disinfected food or packages before bringing them in. I even visit my mother now, since she is alone with dealing with my stepfather being on hospice and losing his mind. I hope we can all become as calm as the facebook post seems to point out. It is a nice, calm, informational post.

 

[blackemerald1]

I know there are tiers of wealth throughout the Western world and in the USA but overall one would have to agree that the capacity of the USA to respond to this virus was not tied to inadequate money, technical resources or the will of the medical community. Most of which are not available to the same levels in many, many other countries and especially so in third World nations.

We've had various example of what will happen if the virus is left to run unabated. Sweden is now reputed to have the highest death rate pc than any other nation - don't quote me because it changes hourly but it was as of yesterday. They had a let it rip mentality and were I guess, willing to accept the toll. The UK started out in the same vein & then adopted a different way, NZ & Australia locked down & have a statistically negligible death toll as do a few other countries.

So different countries are demonstrating different ways of dealing with it. Some with good medical outcomes & some with poor or devastating outcomes. And some countries - nobody knows because the testing & accounting simply isn't available. And then there is the political spin that some countries have applied to make themselves look less impacted than they are.

And of course the economic outcomes are tied to whatever suppressive method each government has applied.

Comparing any other country to China is also difficult. Russia is now staggering under the pressure of infection for example so a comparison between those countries isn't helpful either.

We don't really know what China did to patients who contracted the virus, the level of care they received because China isn't being open about their methods or indeed their real infection rate & death toll.

We've seen Chinese 'officials' welding doors shut on a building but was there really anyone inside & who were the welders? Was it propaganda or sending a warning against civil unrest to it's own citizens?

Nobody can really verify much at all in China. It looked alarming from the outside but I wonder why that particular video was allowed to jump into the wild & by whom it was taken & disseminated. Healthy scepticism?

China is hiding it's failures whereas Western countries air them out for all to see.

I've not laughed at the US or how each of the States have dealt with the virus thus far. Nor do I cry. You have a robust political system & despite all of it's detractors, it is democracy in action. Being free to say & decide how to behave is democracy.

In relation to other democracy's such as South Korea there has been no declaration of elimination of the virus but their death toll is remarkably low whilst they have continued to allow society to work as closely to normal as possible. That's had an economic benefit. Shame and honour have always been a prominent feature of this culture. It has also been exploited forever by criminal elements. But criminals are no different in their exploitative adaptions in any other country.

Australia & NZ have also had a similar outcome to South Korea but only by closing down the movement of people and that's had a huge economic impact. Again, democracy in action.

I think every country fears a second wave of infection regardless of method of dealing with it. Outside of a vaccine there will be waves or ripples while it remains.

Dr Norman Swan, ABC Corona virus - Australia, commented some weeks ago that this virus may eventually become less cruel, via mutation over time. I hope he's correct.

 

[ms spock]

The stress seemed to exhaust me.

I feel for you.

I think the stress is exhausting for everyone, not just those of us with PTSD, but our stress cup overflows sooner than others, but to be honest a lot of so called "normal" people are freaking out as well.

You are definitely not alone.

You are one of the many.

 

[Deanna]

I'm ready for the virus to go away but the numbers keep climbing in my state. I don't get how our state is suppose to open up, with higher numbers. But it is what it is.

I get a corona virus test next Saturday, for my up coming surgery. They say the test hurts. ( I have no idea) I agree with Ms Spock. The virus is definitely stressing everyone out.