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News Events around the George Floyd protests and riots, US and beyond

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Yeah @Rainman8772, true.

The thing is though, even with the same stats, that's absolutely not how it's going to be perceived in Black communities - the underlying actual racism Black people live colors everything, and the issues with sensitively and realistically addressing reporting on racial (ized) crime would need a hecklot more change on all types of issues... not 'just' when things escalate to murder and subsequent violence. :(

@rightkindofme IMO calls of the type of 'disband SWAT teams and else' are nonsense extreme, though.

I'll leave that part to people more qualified to speak on, if they feel up to it, but tldr Nah.

Police with all types of training and work *are* needed. To protect the citizens.

What's not needed is officers with questionable orders enforced from on top and those whose personal prejudices - of any type - get in the way of being professional...

But that is hardly solved by 'just disband them.'

Oy; Tl;dr @Neverthesame said it already. :)
 
How do you demilitarize a Special Weapons and Tactics unit without removing the weapona and tactics, short of disbanding them?

I do put a little bit of thought into what I write here, believe it or not.

Edit: Sorry, that's not meant to sound so snarky as it reads.
 
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some would argue let's vote our way towards the answer & insist on using the Judicial system.
Good ideas, for sure. And they've been tried over and over again in this country, to little effect. Mostly, I think, because it's a minority who are affected. Most of the events in this category are small and happen on a daily basis. They don't leave someone dead on the ground, but they come from the same refusal to recognize someone has equal value, regardless of their identity. It doesn't just effect black people either and I hope, at some point, the national conversation gets expanded to get equal respect for indigenous people, gender non-conforming people, homeless people, and anyone else it might be tempting to think of as "less than" because of what group they might be identified with. The news moves on, other things grab the attention of the majority. Personally, I think the "bullying is ok" mentality is a serious enough problem that it's worth seizing the moment, in spite of the pandemic. (And, I intended that to be an understatement.)
Cops using an armoured military vehicle to approach a house they need to get into encourages restraint, not aggression. The faster they can get in, the less time the people inside have to grab weapons and the more likely they will bring the suspects out in cuffs, instead of body bags.
All of what you say is true. But, it's important to remember that SOMETIMES, they break down the door of the wrong house. In my neighborhood, a lot of people are going to react to someone crashing in their door, unannounced, by shooting first and asking questions later. And, of course, so are the police. Hard situation and serious problem. I don't have the answer. Personally, I've wondered how I'd react to someone crashing into my house in the middle of the night. I honestly would like to think I'd fight back, but then I'd most likely end up dead before we all ever figured out what was going on, huh?

One of the things that seems to get lost in places like Minneapolis is the fact that MOST of the people the police interact with are just "people". They are citizens. They are actually who the PD works for. I know that an officer has to be aware that any situation can go sideways. I also know that your attitude can have a huge effect on whether or not a situation DOES go sideways. One of my questions about the George Floyd situation is how does "maybe passing a counterfeit $20 bill" get you on the ground in cuffs in the first place? (And I have no idea how this particular situation went, at this point. Maybe the arrest was justified, but I've got to wonder.) I keep thinking about paying cash at the gas station and having the clerk check the bill with that pen deal they use. So what WOULD happen if it was fake? If it's fake, I didn't know it, someone gave it to me to pay for getting their horse's hooves trimmed and chances are they didn't know it either. So, do they call the police? Do I go to jail? I've never considered that that might happen. I SURE never thought I'd be likely to get killed over it. And I probably wouldn't, because I'm white and female. My most likely way to get killed by the police would be for someone to call for a welfare check. Those lead to killings with disturbing frequency around here. Why? IDK, maybe because the people responding to the call go into an already fraught situation with an adversarial attitude?

The area where I see a need for "demilitarization" is more an attitude. Policing is not actually a war. It's more complicated than that. The street isn't full of bad guys/the other side. There are bad people there, for sure, but MOST people, regardless of race or anything else, are just your neighbors. There's a big difference between pulling a guy over for a broken tail light and raiding a crack house. Yes, the driver might be a threat, absolutely. On the other hand, treating a person like a threat can escalate things into a dangerous situation all by itself.

Just speaking for myself, I'M apprehensive when I have to deal with a police officer. Got stopped for a tail light being out a couple years ago. As I watched the officer walk up to my car, I was thinking about what my options were for keeping the encounter calm and for de-escalating it if he had an attitude. It went ok. We chatted for a bit and the tension evaporated and I promised to get the light fixed, end of story. But I had a state trooper in Oklahoma pull me over, while I was pulling a horse trailer, and scream at me because he thought I was too long and too slow (the speed limit) in the left lane. I had a left hand exit coming up, there was a lot of traffic, and I tend not to drive at excessive speed with a trailer, just because everyone else seems to be speeding. But, he SCREAMED at me. Wondered what was wrong with me. I was too stunned to respond in kind, but what would have happened if I'd been in a different frame of mind that day?

I get that it's a tough job, really I do. And I get that that trooper might have been having a bad day and I was just the unlucky next person he encountered. I have days when I have a bad attitude at work too and I usually pay for it by having things go less well than they might have. This is something I totally relate to. Part of what makes it a tough job is that, done well, it's a balancing act. You have to be aware that you can get hurt. You have to be equally aware that, since you probably don't actually know who you're dealing with, they might actually be innocent. Your behavior has the ability to make things go either better or worse.
 
This post eloquently addressing the value of violent protest: The Truth You’ve Probably Never Heard About Riots

So I read through that article, and as much as I appreciate the intellectual exercise, I don't think it translates into on the ground reality.

For a start it ignores that historical realities of other countries & eras are specific to that era's & place circumstances. Action guides of then shouldn't be translated to the now. As different situation.

Second... US with its weapon laws as they are and group dynamics as complicated as they are? Imma vote calling for more action - physical *anywhere * is a bad idea.

The fricking revolution in charged environs is instating a functional program feeding Black kids.

Even the reviled by many Black Panther Party got that much.

You can do change in a way that matters, and disarms opposition, and ends the bloodshed, in way different ways.

Third, people who didn't actually have to come home after they killed someone, and feel the despair of how did it *all* go so wrong?, that has no human, meaningful, answers, only the tactical & need of the day & orders & survival ones... just shouldn't even TRY to call for violence.

Bc yeah. Until you've done it?
You have no fricking clue what you're talking about.

And if you have, it may be wee bit of a reason to be peace & love trying, and on a PTSD site. ;)
 
But, it's important to remember that SOMETIMES, they break down the door of the wrong house.
That's where the "always room for improvement part comes in. Because, yes. That is terrifying. I can absolutely see how something like this could get me killed (were I a gun owner). Because yeah I don't commit crimes, I have no reason to expect the police to one day kick my door down and invade my house.
My first thought wouldn't be "Oh blimey. It's the rozzers!".
It would be "f*cking home invasion! Save my family!"

The human factor really can go south, you're absolutely right about that.
 
Followed this story with interest over the past week.

Been on social media a lot & I'm shocked at how overtly racist some people I know are. It's one thing to have subconscious biases based on lived experience (which we all have), it's another to put profanity laden rants on the internet.

Personally I found #blackouttuesday a bit false. I understand the purpose, but I do wonder how many people who posted a black square will pick up a book on race relations. It's something I'm certainly going to do & I've already started online research.
 
Re. Home invasions...

Idk about that.
Even home invasions by armed gunmen don't have to go down the death route.

IME what ifs & reality & reactions are different universe apart.

'I'm gonna die' may not be the most useful trace of thought even for preparing for them, theoretically much less practically.

'I'm gonna live... Now -how-' is a lot more difficult to get into. Requires sitting own hypervig down though, so definitely not easy even from that point, not even starting on invaders.
 
The area where I see a need for "demilitarization" is more an attitude. Policing is not actually a war. It's more complicated than that. The street isn't full of bad guys/the other side. There are bad people there, for sure, but MOST people, regardless of race or anything else, are just your neighbors. There's a big difference between pulling a guy over for a broken tail light and raiding a crack house. Yes, the driver might be a threat, absolutely. On the other hand, treating a person like a threat can escalate things into a dangerous situation all by itself.


Wow where to start...... Demilitarization of police units is completely insane and will lead to more death on both the police officers and the general public. SWAT stands for Special Weapons And Tactics. These are the highest trained police officers in the entire force. Unless you would like to regress into the Wild West be careful of what you wish for. Statistically speaking SWAT officers kill fewer people than just a patrol officer.

Also just an FYI a traffic stop is the most deadly situation for ANY police officer even more so than a crack house. Why you ask???? Think of it this way; when the police raid a drug house they do so with aggressive action to prevent violence and not allow anyone time to attack them. They go in knowing what is on the other side of the door. If every patrol officer treated a traffic stop the same way there would be public outrage. The patrol officer has to go from 0-100 in less than a second based on the situation. The person with the broken tail light in the stolen car knows they are not going back to jail and already decided to fight before the officer even walks up to the car. A majority of the time the officer doesn’t know who or what is in the car they stopped or if that person intends to cause them harm. Talk about stress.... 99 times out of a 100 nothing will happen but that one time something does they have to be ready. How would you feel if 20 times per day you walked up to a car not knowing if the person intended you harm? The police are already set up to fail and die if a traffic stop turns bad just from having less of a reactionary gap. Reaction time saves lives of both the general public and the police. It gives the officer time to make a decision. Bottom line is police are human and make mistakes like anyone else but are held to a higher standard than the general public.
 
One of my questions about the George Floyd situation is how does "maybe passing a counterfeit $20 bill" get you on the ground in cuffs in the first place? (And I have no idea how this particular situation went, at this point. Maybe the arrest was justified, but I've got to wonder.)

The arrest was justified what happened after the arrest was not. Most media is ignoring the fact George Floyd was also under the influence of meth and fentanyl at the time of arrest. He was placed in the car and there was a struggle in the back of the car so removed from the car. Where the officer screwed up was keeping him in the prone while handcuffed causing death from positional asphyxiation. The police officers will have their time in court and most likely with the charge the prosecution is seeking will be set free. It is very very hard to get a conviction for murder and much easier for manslaughter. The cop was wrong hands down but will likely walk based on the level the state attorney is trying to get.
 
Also, I'm pretty sure most police departments do teach deescalation.
It's absolutely true that some do - and I'm having a hard time finding a summary of stats that is more recent than 2017. Part of the problem is, as of 2017, less than half the states in the US had mandatory de-escalation training. Those that did, required it to greater or lesser degrees. That's part of what makes all this so weirdly complicated....

If anyone's interested, here's a list by US state, on basic police training requirements and links to more detailed information.
What happened to him was wrong and the officers should be charged. I don’t condone it in the slightest but when put into perspective it’s clear to see how the media fans the flame to keep up ratings. The media is also making more about race than what actually happens as well.
Agree with that.

I'll say it again, though. People are conflating two separate but overlapping issues. Use of excessive force by police in some jurisdictions is a real problem. There are places where de-escalation isn't just not required, it's looked at as an unnecessary thing. So yes, when one looks at the stats for police violence against Black individuals specifically, they won't bear out. But looking at the stats for excessive force altogether, there's a different picture.

And racism in America is a problem. It's not only that we have racists...we also have a documented progression of racism against Black Americans in our nation's history. Individuals who have lived through the progression of racism are still alive, and still remember. Have suffered. Or, have parents, grandparents who suffered. Friends.

Racism is a thing. Excessive force is a thing. Sometimes those things happen at the same time. That's when things spill out of control...either of those two issues taken completely on their own would likely lead to the same kinds of protests and violence that we are seeing now.

So, you put those two issues together....and oh, PS, add a pandemic....which, as an issue taken on its own, was ALREADY leading to protests, leading to violence...

It's understandable.

Personally, I think trying to sort the who is right/who is wrong - it's almost impossible. All we can do is see the issues, and figure out what we believe about them. What we are/are not willing to do, to engage our own beliefs.

It's an epic time.
 
@joeylittle I looked up my state and the information here is wrong. For South Carolina it says 40 hours per 3 years including one domestic violence and one legal course. Also says no de-escalation training. That’s an outright lie.

S.C. and most states/federal teach PPCT training which has de-escalation training built in with it at the police academy. Also S.C. requires legal and domestic violence EVERY year that is not included in the 40 hours of training. Also firearms and takedown training are twice per year at most departments but required once per year.

This is the chart officers are taught. The officer does level plus one when the person is acting out and level minus one when the person is complying.
 

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