Relationship Let's be honest...

[Tinyflame]

I have mixed emotions about this thread, experiencing both sides of the coin.

I can only think, all relationships are the privacy of the people involved, who want and need different things (rightfully so). Hopefully there is enough safety and honesty to express (not when flooded) how each other feels. And thus to be open also to be 'called out' by others- though I actually think a person not involved directly in another's relationship has to be very careful with that.

I have seen such a relationship be better than most (my parents), but it didn't become that way without fighting for it and for health.

I would hope I am never abusive. I certainly may have left people feeling I was, or was uncaring (eg ghosting) but it was mostly because I believed what the OP asserts here about people with ptsd. I caused and cause more damage probably fearing I am a burden or harm, even when others I'm connected to have not said so.

As I get older and also learn more, I could probably pull up a dozen+ situations or realities that affect relationships equally. Yes mental illnesses are one. So is disability, physical illness, substance abuse, infidelity, attachment styles, core beliefs, boundaries. Lots of cognitive distortions that Anthony pointed out to me are not a hallmark of ptsd but rather of humans in general.

I think Gottman has it right. Curiosity and tenderness go further (again when not flooded), as does gratitude, catching or remembering what the other person does right, mutual admiration and affection. And building trust by consistently turning towards. I was very surprised to hear he has less trouble turning couples around where there is abuse, because much of that is accepting influence from your partner. Which is a matter of trust, which goes back to turning towards, which is preceded by curiosity, gratitude and tearing apart cognitive distortions. Which when you think about it comes back also to self esteem: affording that respect to others but also not running one's own self down. Not always easy aka when one needs the most love they can act the worst. Not meaning being a punching bag, but enough wisdom to question where is this coming from? What is constructive to do, think or feel? Does getting out of a comfort zone mean forgiveness, also of one's own self? When and what conversations are to be had, how are they to be had? Is one person feeling superior? Are both people recognizing their contribution? What is ultimately the cause for behaviours? (Anger is a cover emotion and much else runs deep.) Do both people respect the other's individuality? Etc.

Unfortunately so he says, 70+% (I think?) of problems are perpetual in all relationships, ptsd or no. But what dream do they represent? What is the person experiencing or fearing? And where did it come from? So something greater has to exist for all relationships to survive and thrive. Most actually don't. I think wisdom along with love is a big part of the key. Which is also communication, listening, and trust. And sometimes any of us, ptsd or not, have to kick our own as*. JMHO.

 

[Anon1]

There are a few symptoms that most people without PTSD take issue with, as well as people with PTSD, often take issue with, dating -or loving- someone with PTSD creates common denominators. As PTSD often/usually includes; ABCDEFG. Abuse? Is. Not. One. Of. Them.

If your ex had PTSD AND was abusive? I’m so sorry. That does happen. Often, even. Especially with childhood abuse, as that tends to format the blueprint for future relationships. Also? As abuse often begets abuse. But abuse? Is not a symptom of PTSD.

Regardless of what the trends are? (Like most people with PTSD are not abusive) .. if you’re dealing with someone with PTSD who IS abusive? That’s very, very, real. Even if it’s not the norm. It’s you, and your life, which is real. It’s “just” not the PTSD, “but” them. Themselves. Which you can see, feel, as you’re living it. Yes. PTSD is a part of them, but so is the abuse & replicating that. Like being vegan. Or xyz political profile. The two things can, and often do, co-exist. But they’re correlational instead of causal.

I married a psychopath because I ignored the depth to which childhood trauma can affect a person. He was different than aaaanyone I’d ever met. (And I HAVE ptsd & knew countless people from my own brand of crazy). And I believed hallmark. That different is “good”. So I’m not saying this unscathed. You. Were. Hurt. Badly. By this person. PTSD? Ain’t why. He, himself, was why.

Do you mean - you saw signs, but kind of negated them because feelings were involved, and it's hard to understand the depth of something until you've really been there long enough?

And by 'hallmark' do you mean that you kind of held out hope that things would be okay because your feelings led you against your better judgement, towards an 'against all the odds'-type optimism?

Just clarifying!

 

[anthony]

I eventually left the relationship because I realized that I was just her punch bag. I had no more emotional strength for her outbursts or her rants; no more love for the person who just saw me as a target for her anger, and no more space for her nastiness in my life.

Get out! Get out while there is still enough left of you to rebuild!

I would concur for the most part.

The person you love will not change!

I disagree with this. Yes, some will not change. Some will.

So which do you leave and which do you stay is the question back to you?

My PTSD cost me two marriages, both my leaving them because I was toxic as f*ck and I knew it in the back of my mind. I'm nowhere near that person though today, and my now wife, yes, she deals with some PTSD crap of mine still today, but for the most part, I keep it in check myself.

Should she have not married me? Don't get me wrong, the first few years had rocky parts and she should have left, but here we are today, near 20 years, and I am much better a person towards her / our relationship.

So yes; and no!

 

[Freida]

Hubby and I (im the ptsd mess LOL) have been together for 20+ years and yes, sometimes it is very, VERY hard to try to juggle a relationship and a disease like ptsd. One of the biggest challenges for me was not recognizing that my behavior and thought processes were damaging to those around me. It took coming here to learn just how much my ptsd affected our relationship and I've learned more from the people here who are on the opposite side of the ptsd coin than I've learned in any couples therapy.

With that being said? The only reason we are successful is that I'm willing to do the work to get better. If I wasn't we would have split up long ago because it's not fair to anyone to have to put up with the crapola that is any untreated mental illness.

If your sufferer wasn't willing to do the work to change and just wanted to have constant adult temper tantrums you are totally right to kick her to the curb. No one should be subjected to that - ptsd or no ptsd. But I can say that there are some of us out there who aren't happy bringing that kind of chaos to their loved ones and are willing to change. It's not always easy for hubby, but I think just the fact that he is still here means I must be doing something right.

Just a thought....

 

[anthony]

Oh... and yes, my now wife did give me an ultimatum - not a bullshit veiled threat, but she was out if I didn't get my shit together. So I pushed hard and got my shit together. All choices. Some people just aren't ready to make them. Maybe they never will be because they're just too broken.

 

[Anon1]

Hubby and I (im the ptsd mess LOL) have been together for 20+ years and yes, sometimes it is very, VERY hard to try to juggle a relationship and a disease like ptsd. One of the biggest challenges for me was not recognizing that my behavior and thought processes were damaging to those around me. It took coming here to learn just how much my ptsd affected our relationship and I've learned more from the people here who are on the opposite side of the ptsd coin than I've learned in any couples therapy.

With that being said? The only reason we are successful is that I'm willing to do the work to get better. If I wasn't we would have split up long ago because it's not fair to anyone to have to put up with the crapola that is any untreated mental illness.

If your sufferer wasn't willing to do the work to change and just wanted to have constant adult temper tantrums you are totally right to kick her to the curb. No one should be subjected to that - ptsd or no ptsd. But I can say that there are some of us out there who aren't happy bringing that kind of chaos to their loved ones and are willing to change. It's not always easy for hubby, but I think just the fact that he is still here means I must be doing something right.

Just a thought....

Do you see a distinction between working on yourself in the context of a relationship, and working on yourself individually Freida?

In my experience, the person seemed to work on themselves a lot in general, but in the relationship they seemed to struggle more with owning things and working on things.

It seems like there's a difference between working on symptom reduction and working on how one shows up in relationship, but other people may not make that distinction?

 

[Freida]

It seems like there's a difference between working on symptom reduction and working on how one shows up in relationship, but other people may not make that distinction?

Yep. There's two parts to it, but they are kind of intertwined. I can't be a better partner until I'm a better (more stable) person. But getting there is a long, hard slog, so the relationship sometimes suffers while I'm in the dark places.

I think what makes it work is communication before things get bad. I used to be a runner, which would really undo hubby because, well, I left LOL. So on a good day we made rules. I had to check in, tell him how long I would be gone, blah blah. That would be "relationship" work

Me setting rules for isolation - you CANNOT bug me or distract me until I say I'm done - falls under things I'm doing for myself because it means I'm overwhelmed and I need space. That would be "me" work

Getting hubby some education on what ptsd is and what might go south was also super helpful. I just suggested to a friend that her new guy read The Body Keeps the Score because I think it gives a really good explanation of what's going on in our heads. She's gonna let me know what he thinks

If that helps?

 

[Anon1]

Yep. There's two parts to it, but they are kind of intertwined. I can't be a better partner until I'm a better (more stable) person. But getting there is a long, hard slog, so the relationship sometimes suffers while I'm in the dark places.

I think what makes it work is communication before things get bad. I used to be a runner, which would really undo hubby because, well, I left LOL. So on a good day we made rules. I had to check in, tell him how long I would be gone, blah blah. That would be "relationship" work

Me setting rules for isolation - you CANNOT bug me or distract me until I say I'm done - falls under things I'm doing for myself because it means I'm overwhelmed and I need space. That would be "me" work

Getting hubby some education on what ptsd is and what might go south was also super helpful. I just suggested to a friend that her new guy read The Body Keeps the Score because I think it gives a really good explanation of what's going on in our heads. She's gonna let me know what he thinks

If that helps?

It does, yes!

All things I wish I knew before my experience.

Not that it necessarily would've changed things, but it would've been nice to have a chance to know.

One thing which I think is hard with a CPTSD related break up, is that you really don't always know what the leading cause was.

In other break ups, you might be allowed to think "They were an idiot" or "I was an idiot".

Here, it's more like:

"They were an idiot... but... *were* they? Or were they just unwell, and we could've done something different then?"

Or:

"I was an idiot.. but... *was* I?
Or were my emotions reacting quite normally to some extreme demands being placed upon them, which - in a perfect world - I'd have handled wonderfully, but in my humanness, I handled really quite poorly in the moment?"

It throws open this extra set of possibilities and options which can leave unanswered questions and unsatisfying conclusions.

I also see scope for a lot of double binds for the supporter:

"You don't love me enough; but you're also not allowed to bother me to tell me that you love me, when I want space because I feel like you don't love me enough."

And perhaps for the sufferer (though you may disagree with this):

"You want me (the sufferer) to be more relaxed and open, and to manage my symptoms well, so you feel you can commit to me; but I can't do those things so easily unless I feel you're committed."

I think these dynamics create a lot of helpless feelings for both parties, which *might* be present behind the tone of the OP's first post (though he/she would have to confirm that themselves, I guess).

The thing I probably found hardest about my CPTSD relationship was - I think - that helpless feeling.

The helplessness, sense of being misunderstood, and the sense of isolation.

Where something would happen, and I'd just be powerless to make it better for us both. Or the sense that the other person just *can't* see that you're safe.
Or being judged as a kind of 'abuser' when they were having a bad day, and just sort of... having to be okay with that.

It must be horrible to experience that as a sufferer, and it's hard as a supporter because - who wants to be thought of as an abuser? Especially by the one you desperately want to feel safe around you.

If we were two people who 'just didn't work out' then it hurts, but it's fine.

I think it's the extra sets of things going on under the surface of all of that which can make it so hard to stop dwelling on etc.

 

[Stitch77777]

It does, yes!

All things I wish I knew before my experience.

Not that it necessarily would've changed things, but it would've been nice to have a chance to know.

One thing which I think is hard with a CPTSD related break up, is that you really don't always know what the leading cause was.

In other break ups, you might be allowed to think "They were an idiot" or "I was an idiot".

Here, it's more like:

"They were an idiot... but... *were* they? Or were they just unwell, and we could've done something different then?"

Or:

"I was an idiot.. but... *was* I?
Or were my emotions reacting quite normally to some extreme demands being placed upon them, which - in a perfect world - I'd have handled wonderfully, but in my humanness, I handled really quite poorly in the moment?"

It throws open this extra set of possibilities and options which can leave unanswered questions and unsatisfying conclusions.

I also see scope for a lot of double binds for the supporter:

"You don't love me enough; but you're also not allowed to bother me to tell me that you love me, when I want space because I feel like you don't love me enough."

And perhaps for the sufferer (though you may disagree with this):

"You want me (the sufferer) to be more relaxed and open, and to manage my symptoms well, so you feel you can commit to me; but I can't do those things so easily unless I feel you're committed."

I think these dynamics create a lot of helpless feelings for both parties, which *might* be present behind the tone of the OP's first post (though he/she would have to confirm that themselves, I guess).

The thing I probably found hardest about my CPTSD relationship was - I think - that helpless feeling.

The helplessness, sense of being misunderstood, and the sense of isolation.

Where something would happen, and I'd just be powerless to make it better for us both. Or the sense that the other person just *can't* see that you're safe.
Or being judged as a kind of 'abuser' when they were having a bad day, and just sort of... having to be okay with that.

It must be horrible to experience that as a sufferer, and it's hard as a supporter because - who wants to be thought of as an abuser? Especially by the one you desperately want to feel safe around you.

If we were two people who 'just didn't work out' then it hurts, but it's fine.

I think it's the extra sets of things going on under the surface of all of that which can make it so hard to stop dwelling on etc.

"You don't love me enough; but you're also not allowed to bother me to tell me that you love me, when I want space because I feel like you don't love me enough."

And perhaps for the sufferer (though you may disagree with this):

"You want me (the sufferer) to be more relaxed and open, and to manage my symptoms well, so you feel you can commit to me; but I can't do those things so easily unless I feel you're committed."


THIS!!!!! It sums it up perfectly.

Which in my relationship with a PTSD sufferer looks like we build, closeness and stability in the relationship being moving towards the next step in our relationship.

Start feeling settled and stable, start the process of moving in together, until PTSD creeps in.

Which is followed be a period of isolation, she goes away for a few weeks.

The two statements I quoted become super relevent here.

The sense of commitment is smashed both ends.

Start building stability again.

Repeat...

 

[Anon1]

"You don't love me enough; but you're also not allowed to bother me to tell me that you love me, when I want space because I feel like you don't love me enough."

And perhaps for the sufferer (though you may disagree with this):

"You want me (the sufferer) to be more relaxed and open, and to manage my symptoms well, so you feel you can commit to me; but I can't do those things so easily unless I feel you're committed."


THIS!!!!! It sums it up perfectly.

Which in my relationship with a PTSD sufferer looks like we build, closeness and stability in the relationship being moving towards the next step in our relationship.

Start feeling settled and stable, start the process of moving in together, until PTSD creeps in.

Which is followed be a period of isolation, she goes away for a few weeks.

The two statements I quoted become super relevent here.

The sense of commitment is smashed both ends.

Start building stability again.

Repeat...

Yeah, I didn’t have a long relationship experience, but it was long enough to see some of this.

She’d also often say things like
“You take my words too seriously - don’t listen to my words!” (Seriously!) and
“I interpret neutrals as negatives - you need to frame everything as a positive.” - so not ‘feel free to come over if you like’, but ‘I’d love to see you tonight‘ - otherwise she’d be upset etc.

Then she’d ask for space, I’d give space; and she’d immediately switch to texting me all the time, breaking the space she’d asked for.

Then, once she asked for space after saying that I didn’t care about her… and when I tried to get her to talk about it to show that I DID care, she said that I was being a ‘man who was ignoring her boundaries‘ (directly related to her trauma).

The changes and mixed messages were very confusing, and the stakes always felt incredibly high.

But I think she may have had BPD or similar as well, so that may have also played a part…

Either way, we didn’t have a successful relationship, though I know many supporters/survivors do.

Perhaps a little more healing from her and a little more relational maturity from both of us would’ve helped - and we may not have been well matched anyway.

So yeah… I see that it can work wonderfully, but I also see the frustrations and difficulties - and the pain involved etc. I guess every relationship rises and falls on its individual merits…

 

[DogTired]

It's tough for both of us. I have had a vicious resurgence of PTSD after 38 years of coping with it.
Only with this one, nothing works. All my strategies I used don't work today and, as above, I feel terrible for upsetting my wife.
I KNOW I AM TOXIC, but won't leave my wife under any circumstances as I have to protect her from what I see as dangers to her.

Wanna know what the main problem is?
I can't get help as the UK mental health service is awful. Even for vets.
Reason given? I have no thoughts of self harm.