The Work And Byron Katie: Reviews?

[dharmaBum]

It wouldn't bother me that someone isn't a trained counsellor or therapist as much as it would bother me to feel dubious about aspects of their approach. I've been helped by a number of things, and not all of them are put forward by people with a background in conventional therapy. All of them, however, have been things that resonated and felt right for me at that time...

I definitely agree that there are many things that help me in my life that haven't been scientifically vetted, and I wouldn't want to live my life with that requirement either. I was specifically seeking out The Work after following a link for it on a reference website about exposure therapy. At the time I first read directly about The Work, there were claims on the website about eliminating depression and anxiety and being a self-help treatment for PTSD, but those have since been rephrased or eliminated.

I was really unaware about some levels of impact that PTSD was having in my day-to-day thoughts, emotions, and life. I thought it was all about the bad dreams and insomnia, etc. about a specific and stressful criminal court case I was (and still am) involved in. I didn't understand that the pervasive abuse and neglect I experienced throughout childhood was trauma- even if I could identify those events on a trauma inventory. I didn't think they had a traumatic impact on me, because they didn't cause specific recurrent images and identifiable intrusive thoughts. I did however have beliefs in myself as fundamentally defective, incapable, worthless, etc. AND, especially after trying to resolve this with The Work, I thought my continued holding of these beliefs was yet another character deficit that I couldn't get rid of because somewhere deep inside I wasn't admitting that the childhood traumas were my fault.

This history of childhood trauma and neglect indicates to me now that an experienced mental health practitioner who is at least legally (via licensing requirements) bound to ethical practice guidelines and informed about current practice models for adult survivors of childhood abuse with demonstrable dissociation was who I needed on my side as I tried to untangle negative self-beliefs forged via hostile/abusive attachments in early childhood. I have learned so much in the last year and a half about how the brain processes developmental trauma and impacts personality formation. I don't want to go into in depth, but trauma research clearly shows that children may develop views of self-defectiveness because they are literally and/or metaphorically told and shown over and over again by their trusted caregivers that they are defective. It's pretty simple, and it doesn't hurt my heart one bit to accept that. I look forward to learning how to adjust this defect-programming rather than blame myself for having it!

 

[Hashi]

I think it's a good idea to have a new thread about understanding what's safe to do or not do, and how to interpret fear of processing something. Maybe if anyone begins this, they could post here to point to it, to avoid duplication? (If no-one else does, I might, when my head's a bit less overloaded.)

I just wanted to comment on what's been touched on here about how appropriate self help approaches are and dharma's thoughts about The Work possibly benefitting a trauma-free adult but survivors of trauma needing something different. I'm seeing this view in response to different things. It's in another thread on the forum about AA, and I've also heard it at a Caroline Myss workshop where before talking about changing your patterns of thinking and behaviour she's made it clear that she's not talking about people who've experienced severe trauma.

dharma, I hadn't realised you posted originally a while ago. I never look at the dates. I'm sorry you had such bad experiences with and around The Work. It sounds like a painful journey, but you seem to have reached a much deeper understanding now and come to an acceptance of how trauma has affected you. It sounds like you're in a good place to continue healing in a way that's right for you.

 

[dharmaBum]

Hashi, your comments remind me of Kundalini Psychosis, which I learned about as I was recovering from the experiences I've mentioned in this post. A relative holds a Masters in Social Work and has long used mindfulness meditation in her practice and personal life. She told me about how in Germany it is well-established that some individuals experience a severe psychological crisis when embarking on Kundalini studies and meditation and that there are clinics set-up to help such people reintegrate with day to day life, even though many more people find it immensely beneficial in their life.

As you said, I am definitely much more aware of what I'm capable of and need than I was a year and a half ago, and right now it seems safe to say that I do not need to be pushed over the edge into shattered illusions of reality in order to heal from trauma. I pretty much need warm tea, a hammock, and a sunny day :) And I really am talking about me. I do think other people can benefit greatly from these different self-help processes. I have benefited pretty well from learning Non-Violent Communication to identify and express my emotions, but some people find it to be robotic and inauthentic when they try it out. I'm really thankful to have the PTSD forum, because I'm isolated in lots of ways and it would be hard to impossible to figure all this stuff out on my own.

 

[Aramis]

I'm disagree you. Not everyone must go to Uni to study psychology training to proof that they are expert in Psychology. We can learn from our life journey and experience. Everyone can enlighten and understand in psychology without going to study in school. Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha, Osho, Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud and many other greatest man are good example. Totally understand the theory of human psychology and exam get 100% point with Certificate are two different thing. You earn credit certification doesn't mean you are expert. To fully understand human psychology is not what you study in paper but how you experience and experiment in your life journey and understand. Do not judge people with Certificate, that is so superficial.

 

[dharmaBum]

Over time since this thread was started, it has become the #2 Google search return and the #1 Yahoo search return for the phrase "Bryon Katie PTSD". For a year and half my posts received no reply, and then recently two new users have joined and posted only on this thread to write in favor of The Work or uncertified psychology experts, as well as several existing members who have posted to discuss the topic in general as they hadn't tried The Work or known about the process. I appreciate getting feedback from people with diverse views and experiences.

Niole O shared some examples about using The Work in her personal life, but hasn't responded to my question about controlled studies of The Work as an appropriate treatment for PTSD. If The Work helps, that really is great. But what about when it hurts? I'm still looking forward to reading those studies if they are available or other in-depth analysis of The Work by someone with a professional background in human psychology and attachment trauma.

I'm not saying that professional psychologists and mental health providers are the only people who can help out there. I'm saying that I've heard many anecdotal reports in favor and disfavor regarding this process and that if it is as effective at helping reduce PTSD symptoms as some claim, where is the scientific evidence of this positive impact?

Following is the link for one of the original videos that I watched when first learning about Byron Katie (The specific segment starts at 2:50). It triggered a dysphoric re-experiencing and disassociation regarding gas-lighting and shifting of accountability that went along with many of my early trauma experiences. I didn't realize this was happening: I just became toxically self-critical as I "reasoned" from watching the video that the serial rapist who would attack randomly during age 10-15 wasn't responsible for the rape, I was because I had made the choice to "let him" rape me- since in the video Byron Katie is saying and demonstrating (summing it up at minute 5:30), "I make the choice. If they are torturing me and then I say it. I give them what they want because they've tortured me, who made the decision? I did. I did. But I can't say, 'They tortured me, they made me do it.' I did it."

When I viewed this material, I was (unknown to myself) in a highly triggered and vulnerable state of mind and believed fully that Byron Katie was a mental health professional who could help stop bad-PTSD symptoms and that through online resources the help would be immediate. I've learned since how to be a more critical consumer and how to protect myself when I notice that I'm feeling vulnerable or triggered.

Likely to any other viewer, this video won't seem like a smoking gun of criticism. When I'm not in a triggered state (dissociative ego-state re-experiencing trauma as if I were a child and it was currently happening with full physiological arousal and disrupted cognition) I can see that this method is not for me and maybe not generally appropriate for various reasons. But in a triggered state I was almost completely mesmerized and cast in a sea of horribly painful physio-emotional sensations that Byron Katie promised to help with.

I tried "more Byron Katie" as the solution, thinking I wasn't getting it right, or that I was profoundly unwilling to face my role in childhood traumas. But the truth is that I was force-fed my non-existent role my entire life and was battling with at times overwhelming suicidal ideation based on the toxic-psyche that developed from believing there was something so wrong with me that I wanted to be abused and exploited by almost every attachment figure I came across. I think that Byron Katie believes that even as children we are responsible for the abuse we experience, even if it is only .00000001% of the responsibility, and that we won't fully feel relief until we admit that fact and experience it as true. Some psychologists identify this view as a maladaptive coping mechanism that gives the survivor a semblance of power which may seem preferable to the overwhelming powerlessness found in traumatic situations, but which is not true healing. Perhaps if you know that clearly going in to the process you can make a more informed decision about exploring trauma via The Work.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

This lady is such a joke.

I've been reading up on her....well, what I can without being totally ticked off!

Ok, so she says that by changing our thoughts we can end suffering. I think to myself "hmmm, sounds like Buddhism, but I'll be open minded and read on..." She talks about her "awakening" and how she was sleeping on a bare wooden floor in an attic when she became "enlightened" Ok, Katie, you lost me there. I've read a little about Buddhism, so I'm no expert, but it doesn't take a weatherman to tell me the weather... She's ripping off Buddhism and claiming it for her own! (And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Buddha take a long time to work toward enlightenment? This woman became enlightened more in a struck by lightening sort of way.)

But...and this is a BIG but...she's twisting it around so much that anything of worth was abandoned long ago. For example, she challenges one patient who has worrisome thoughts that her son wouldn't be able to survive without her. The patient is lead to believe that if she died, her son would be just fine because he has a father to support him, and thus Katie has "corrected" her patients narcissistic thinking. Uhm, OK, it's not narcissistic to think that a young child NEEDS a mother! Take Katie's thinking a few degrees further...what if the father died, then all the grandparents, and finally all extended family. Then the child would be left with nobody, but Katie wants you to believe that he would be "just fine" (in an orphanage in some societies, on the streets in others). Or flip that around....ok, so it's just fine for a mother to abandon her son because the son doesn't "need" his mother. Ugh, I think you can see where I'm going with this. (Yes, I'm extending Katie's reasoning, albeit according to her own rules)

It's sad though....I have a feeling that her cult like followers know nothing about Buddhism, or else they would be subscribing to the real deal and not this ten cent knock off!

Another fault I find with Katie is that she tells her "followers" what to think. Buddha never did that. He guided people to find their own truth and to test out his ideas in their own lives and to see how his thinking could help them. This woman just wants you to think like she thinks, not allowing for much free thought at all. Sad, really.

I think I'm going to move to some country where the people know nothing about Jesus Christ, rip off his teachings, twist them around so I can claim them as my own, and then make millions. Why? Because this is exactly what she's done. I think its sad that more people can't see through her smoke and mirrors.

 

[anthony]

I watched that video, and I see no issue for the most part with what Katie Byron said. The only exception is the specific part about torture. She is right up until the time of giving the information. That is still free-will. The moment a person tortures though, that is no longer your decision, and now is the torturers decision. You are not giving freely, you are not making the decisions at that point. Your brain makes them as survival kicks in under torture.

Most of what she said is commonsense. The teen sounded more like a normal whining teenager with the typical 'poor me' attitude.

 

[dharmaBum]

Hey anthony and ScaredOfLonely, thank you for chiming in.

Anthony, I don't know if I can convince you of anything, or if that is even my intention. I started this thread to learn more and am open to various interpretations and opinions. There are plenty of people writing online analyzing Byron Katie's presentations who do think that she is problematic and potential dangerous when working with vulnerable people who have experienced a range of trauma. I don't expect all reasonable thinkers to have that same view.

In one of her books (I think), I read as she was working with an adult survivor of sexual assault (don't remember if it was as a child) that she told the survivor (paraphrased because I can't find the quote), "He raped you once, How many times have you raped yourself remembering it?" It follows this general line of thought I've come across in her writings and material that if you still feel bad about a bad thing that happened to you then you are at fault for feeling bad, because you have control of your feelings and thoughts. I find it doesn't fit with the brain-research on PTSD, and I've found that it isn't helpful to me- so I don't try to use that system anymore.

What I've also seen is that people who agree with most of what Katie says are then often not observant or critical of some of the more potentially-damaging elements of her process when applied to trauma and those with diagnosable mental-illnesses, especially if it doesn't apply to them.

In reference to the video, I imagine it wouldn't be triggering or concerning to everyone. If one was asphyxiated by a banana, that untreated person might have an issue with bananas, but everybody else probably thinks bananas are wonderful, essential for health even. Byron Katie as a person and a speaker so closely mirrors people in my life who I depended on to care for me but who abused me and were insistent that it was my fault. Even if Byron Katie were simply reciting nursery rhymes, I'd still feel scared to hear her voice. I'm still in a place where it is hard to distinguish intuitive hits about unsafe situations vs triggered reactions to paired stimuli.

 

[anthony]

In one of her books (I think), I read as she was working with an adult survivor of sexual assault (don't remember if it was as a child) that she told the survivor (paraphrased because I can't find the quote), "He raped you once, How many times have you raped yourself remembering it?"

I would agree that is going over-board also. I know what she is saying, but there are plenty of other ways to say the same thing in a harsh manner, yet not that harsh. It all depends, IMHO, what the person is trying to do. If she is trying to provoke the client into anger, to get at the truth... that technique has a lot of merit and is highly successful. If she is saying it as her choice of words, then it is disrespectful to the person having been raped. Rape is not something a person asks for... and is one of the top 5 violations of a person, otherwise it would be consensual.

I can be harsh through directness, though I wouldn't even say that to someone. I would choose better wording that depicts the statement, not inflict that they're raping themselves. If the person said that, no issues... as they're allowed to use their words and terms to best understand what they feel... but another. Not real clever IMHO.

Oh... and I don't know about Buddhism, so no idea what that has to do with things.

 

[Hashi]

...she told the survivor (paraphrased because I can't find the quote), "He raped you once, How many times have you raped yourself remembering it?"

Which is interesting considering ScaredofLonely's comments about Buddhism. I know this as the Buddhist story about a monk carrying a woman across a river. However she's twisting it, as she seems to be twisting a lot of things. The original story makes sense, but what she says here is nonsense, on a number of levels.

I'm curious why extreme fear and survival instinct don't come into her thinking. I'm guessing she's never been tortured, but surely she doesn't seriously imagine the scenario she so smugly and flippantly paints for herself in this situation? What makes her feel qualified to say anything about it?

I still don't have a whole picture of her approach, but this video is enough for me not to want one.

 

[dilounge]

Hey everyone! I know this conversation has been inactive for a few month now but I'd like to add a thought or two regarding Byron Katie, buddhism and PTSD.

First a thought on Katie and buddhism: Although I don't call myself a buddhist I have attended buddhist group meetings for months now, meditated a lot at home and read books on the subject by western and Asian buddhist authors. I had read Katie's first book a few years before that. I know people say that what she teaches is a practical approach to buddhism. I think, in a sense, this is true.

BUT: buddhism is obviously a lot more than Katie's 4 questions. Just take into consideration that the historical Buddha has given 84.000 teachings during his lifetime.

Someone here questioned Katie's enlightenment. She says it happened overnight. Obviously this is not the way the Budhha described the path to enlightenment. But at the same time he didn't say his approach was the only one. He was no god who demanded people follow his rules or be sent to hell. Instead he gave recommendations based on his experiences. And he asked people to experience for themselves - not to blindly follow. In his "noble truths" he proclaims that human life comes with suffering. And that there is a state of being where suffering has ended. (He then goes on to explain his was out of the suffering, the "eightfold path"). Yet the essential idea in my view is: there IS a state of being where a person has overcome suffering.

And that state Katie says she found. There is another popular non-buddhist author who says he found that state without the Buddha's path: Eckhart Tolle. Both Eckhart and Katie say they suddenly reached that state because their mind just couldn't handle the suffering anymore. Is that a plausible explanation? I don't know. But I wouldn't rule it out - even after having read buddhist books.

Why then do I believe her approach is a practical version of buddhism? Because both her teachings and buddhism have one essential thing in common: overcoming suffering by overcoming the attachment to ones' thoughts, believes, evaluations and feelings.
I don't know if just doing The Work will get you there all the way. But even a step in that direction can be very helpful in ones life.

The Work and PTSD
I don't believe in black and white thinking. Meaning that there is an all-white solution to our problems. (Only a religion could make that claim, and The Work is no religion). Yet there seem to be people who look for the one-and-only cure to their problems in The Work.

It may be a problem that Katie doesn't intervene whenever the "one-and-only-claim" is being made regarding The Work. She may even propagate it that way herself. For all the good things she teaches: that in my view is wrong.

Regarding the example discussed above: yes I do believe it is true that a person having been raped may keep doing it to her-/himself, like she says. (Because ultimately it is always our own thoughts that harm us). Yet I don't believe that this is a very helpful thing say to person in that situation. The approach to that truth (which could bring great relieve once it can really be understood) has to be tought with a lot more compassion and understanding. I don't think her radical approach to truth is good for everybody.

To sum up my experiences: The Work of Byron Katie can be very helpful because it is based on a simple yet powerful truth: you are not your thoughts, and ultimately all your suffering is caused by your thoughts. This helps me tremendously when I repeat the Work on a regular basis regarding a life-long belief of me: "I need other people to take care of me and to make up for the suffering I endured as a kid." I realized that there is now way out of my suffering as long as I keep believing this thought. I tried, for years. Never worked. The Work took away a lot of that suffering.

Yet it may not be the right tool for everyone at every stage of their development. I had to deal with my pain in many different ways before I could really open up to The Work. I needed to go through periods where confronted my anger and my pain. And through periods where I learnt to have compassion with myself, my pain, my suffering and all of my thoughts. Meditation has helped me a lot there. Therapy too. Tools like EMDR also.

Only then was I able to really make The Work useful for me.

 

[justmeagain]

Hi, I just chanced upon this forum, but the subject struck me--and I thought I would add my thoughts. First, a little about me. I, too, like Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie had a spontaneous awakening experience. I wasn't seeking it, had no spiritual interest. I was just suffering and wanted to know the truth, whether it was personally good or bad. That was 35 years ago, and I puttered along my path as a single mother and caretaker of my family since. However, Byron Katie could be my alter ego--and in a sense that may be a little hard to grasp, is. And I didn't even discover her work until recently. However, she speaks of the insight I had--and sometimes in words that almost replicate exactly the very phrases I formulated after my experience. I did not stop suffering after my experience, I continued to suffer (at intervals) but always knowing nothing was fundamentally at risk. I really wanted to understand suffering.

As a little background, I lost my father and eleven-year-old brother at age 9, was jerked out of the frontier life I lived into a totally different society, experienced sexual abuse, rape, suicide of a college roommate, loss of a grown son and a nephew on the same day in different incidents, loss of an infant daughter, two divorces, life with a bipolar son and an alcoholic son (both of whom are beautiful today, thank you), and various other traumas. So, I hope that you will trust some of these credentials to hear me out.

What wonderful questions people have created on this thread. I wanted to speak to the individual who tried the work and felt "psychological decompensation, dissociation, and prolonged experiences of dysphoric ego-states related to attachment trauma". That is a very powerful statement. I would like to offer this thought. I begin with the understanding that I obtained, 35 years ago, from my experience, which has never ceased to be the most real experience I have ever had: God is Good. Katie calls that the final story. I call it the point of non-duality.

Good and beauty are synonymous in my understanding. There is NO opposite to this point. All concept of hate and ugliness is the terror reaction of the belief in separation, which is impossible. Therefore it is a nightmare. EVERYTHING IS BEAUTIFUL if you open your eyes. Someone said to me not too long ago that cancer cells are beautiful. Indeed. Beneath the "final story" or the point of non-duality arises the Opposites, as I call them: up-down, right-left, happy-unhappy, nice-mean, etc. They are like the two halves of an orange, or the two sides of an algebraic equation. Together they equal a whole--in algebra they come back to a zero, the symbol of everything. All that is.

Now, in order to experience, there must be duality, or the illusion of separateness. But it's not real. Not any of it. The ONLY thing that is real is the Good-God-Beauty. The rest is just tools for play.

The problem comes in because a consciousness (or as Katie calls it "a mind") accustomed to perceiving duality, separation, multiple bodies, begins to identify itself as "alone" without other bodies around it. It then perceives itself as "not alone" when the prime body (the one that is identified as "I") is near other bodies. In reality, there is only ONE. In order for the consciousness to make the shift from being separated to being ONE, not a group of souls, but a SOLE, there is a complete shift in paradigm. This can be terrifying and lead to all kinds of fear-based reactions, whatever you call them. If the mind is truly one, that means it's all by itself, right? Alone. Well, that's one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that it's ALL ONE. For the mind afraid of being alone, even if moving to the ALL ONE would end suffering, it will pick the suffering rather than take the chance of being alone. This is a fundamental aspect of the shift from separation to unity. It is based on a belief in separation and an inability to understand that separation does not, cannot, exist. There is plenty of company in ONENESS. It is the company of seeing yourself everywhere you look, of constant love, of acceptance. But a person standing on the brink of the abyss, letting go of what is familiar, taking a leap of faith that he or she will survive to the other side--from Aloneness to All-one-ness, continued suffering may seem preferable.

You are safe. You are beautiful. You are loved. You are the safety net. You are the admirer. You are the lover. When you say to another, "I appreciate you", it will be mirrored back to you, if it is sincere. I guarantee it. It will pop up when you least expect it. I "appreciate" you. I make you more than you are in this moment. I give you back yourself with interest.

The work, in my mind, is brilliant. You can let the words "Byron Katie" go. You don't need to capitalize the work. It's not a thing.

It is a method conceived in the simplicity of reality itself. Reality is simple. Like a person who gets continually tangled in their lies, trying to avoid reality because we are afraid of it results in complexity.

I don't know if any of this helps. The bottom line is: you are wonderful. Everyone on this thread raised brilliant questions. Your path is yours, and nobody else's. Take it at your pace in your way. As my old uncle (who had his own spontaneous enlightening experience--and formulated his theory of harmonic energy) said, "It's a game you can't lose."

There is only NOW. You can open the door to your special room, with the sign over the door, NOW, to unwelcome guests--or you can identify the ones that are causing the problems and ask them to leave (or take off their costume, they're scaring the kids). It's up to you. And no matter, no way, no how, can you ever be less than the gorgeous wonderful reality of YOU.