Relationship The Line Between Codependency, Support And Friendship.

[mixtapeheartache]

It's been a while since I last posted. The last time I physically saw and spoke to my pseudo-companion was sometime in early May. At the time, I was arranging to pick up my things, a relationship was simply not in the cards, she said as much– her focus needed to be on addressing her issues, and she had no desire to speak a word about anything at all regarding "us". Sorry for hurting you, she said.

I gathered my things, and rather than bombard her with a soliloquy of understanding and defensive logic, I just said, "I think you're amazing", and left it at that. She struggled to return the favor, "I...I... think... you're... amazing... too." Tears trickled down her face and I hugged her and she hugged back. Although on a surface level, our positions seemed completely opposite: I wanted a relationship, she did not, our ultimate goals were / are the same: less stress, more fun. We briefly chatted and agreed that maintaining a friendship was something that we both wanted to do, and "I'll see you again soon", she said.

The next morning she emailed me a letter of gratitude expressing how nice it was to see and speak with me and how lucky she was to continue to have me in her life and how glad she was that we cleared everything up. I briefly responded, and then gave her the space I suspect she needed.

Since then, a couple of months and then some have passed. I've sent a few benign text messages and emails, mostly just simple "Hellos", or a picture of my dog, or a link to a fashion website I thought she might like, or a short question asking how her weekend was. There were a couple small gifts a along the way: A book about dogs, some dog bowls for her puppy, a song from iTunes. I suspect over the course of our time apart I've touched base perhaps once every one or two weeks, I thought, without expectation. I never asked for anything in return, but perhaps in the back of my mind, I expected, something– anything.

She hasn't responded at all, except for a single email saying "Thanks!" for a link she must have found enjoyable. I'd be completely delusional if I did not expect some basic response. After all, if you say "Hello" to someone, perhaps even a stranger, the expectation is for a "Hello" back, nothing more, nothing less. After saying how lucky she is to continue to have me in my life, I have been left scratching my head at times if this is "being part of her life"?

But, should we not support those with PSTD without expectation? I have been wondering how she is, if she is okay, but have refrained from asking directly. I think about her everyday, perhaps obsessively. Do I need a response to feel good about myself? Am I capable of a friendship in the truest sense? Is this what friendship is like with a sufferer? Is he seeing someone else? Maybe she's out and about having fun without little ol' me. How is therapy going? Is she going? What is happening, and so on and so on.

I have asked myself these questions time and time again, and I have sought counseling for what I suspect, rather, I know, is a codependent nature. It's interesting, most literature on codependency suggests detachement from the other, where many pieces of PTSD literature suggest being patient and supportive (in some way), that although the Other does not respond, the knowledge that you continue to remain in the background is helpful, that you never know when one of your words of support might just make it through. That does not mean offering advice when not asked, and not solving the Others problems, but simply an awareness that you care, and that you are there.

I go back and forth and back again. I often wonder if it's PTSD or if she simply doesn't like me, anymore. Our relationship was short, but emotional, and I refer to old emails that speak of such joy and care and happiness and excitement of what's to come. I would actually be okay with the latter (her simply not liking me or wanting a friendship at all), everyone has the right to change their mind. I guess it's confusing that she would take the time to instantiate a direct message to me that suggested otherwise.

I guess, it would be nice if she simply told me she didn't like me, that friendship just isn't in the cards, and that would be that.

Or maybe, I don't need anything at all.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Ms.Cranberry]

I know EXACTLY how you feel.

 

[KyGirl31]

I wish I had some sort of encouraging words for you but I don't. I understand how you feel though. Sometimes it would be nice to just know how they truly feel about us or didn't feel instead of always having to guess. It would be nice to just hear it in plain terms rather than having to wonder.

 

[mixtapeheartache]

The challenge is the distinction between words and behavior, which is even more challenging when PTSD is involved. You see, a good rule of thumb is to generally disregard what people says and look at what they do. That is, we are what we do, for how can a man who says he loves his wife in parallel beat her? If someone is grateful to have you in their life, but they never speak to you again, do they?

If you take PTSD out of the equation, the behavior is obvious. If someone does not respond to you, that behavior suggests they don't want to see you, speak to you, associate with you. Period. There are circumstances (illness and so on), but in general, the behavior suggests so. If someone says they are love animals but proceed to kick a dog, the behavior clearly suggests otherwise.

We are not what we say, what we think or how feel. We are, what we do.

Does the same apply for someone with PTSD? Anyone?

 

[Abstract]

If someone does not respond to you, that behavior suggests they don't want to see you, speak to you, associate with you.

We are not what we say, what we think or how feel. We are, what we do.

Does the same apply for someone with PTSD? Anyone?

I think it is and it isn't. It almost certainly means that interacting with the person is not something they can tolerate at present. So in that sense they absolutely do not want to see them. Yes their actions are speaking. The tricky part is that it doesn't necessarily have any connection whatsoever to how much one cares about the person. I have to say that for me I am much, much worse with those I care about. I would go as far as to say that it a directly inverse thing with me.

The tricky part is figuring out if it is a PTSD type isolation or if they are just not that into you. I have no idea what to suggest in that regard.

Going back to talking about actions and what they say. Here are a couple that may apply to PTSD that would not normally be something you would expect and where actions have zero or are inversely connected with how much they care:
* They are staying away as they feel volatile and care too much about you to risk exposing you to that.
* The amount of feelings they have for you makes them feel unsafe and off balance while they are going through an episode. Like an exposed nerve.
* They are in a self hating phase which comes along with feelings of being intensely toxic at a core level and want to protect those they care about by not exposing them to that. Being around others makes them feel worse.
*Their symptoms are out of control and they cannot cope with interacting with anyone at present no matter how much they care. Every word they say to you costs them and causes more disruption.
* They sense the hurt in you when they interact with you and that makes them believe they need to stay away.
* Interacting inevitably brings on more possible moves for physical contact and emotional conversations as a well as possible pressure to discuss things. As all are overwhelming and destabilising there is an instinctive need to create distance. All the former can feel like a boundary issue.

Of course the other possibility is that they are not committed to the relationship.:rolleyes:

The danger is that someone with co dependency issues may convince themselves that they would fix it all if only they could get closer.

 

[mixtapeheartache]

Abstract, all valuable, insightful points. If I were to base our previous interactions, emails, and basic gestures, I would suggest that she was indeed into the relationship (but definitely not committed to "a relationship"-- semantics really-- I don't think you hold hands, and want to always kiss someone and call them darling perpetually if you don't have some feelings for them, but I could be wrong. Friendships ARE relationships, to me).

"I have never ever spoken to friends about a new date before you. I think you are so amazing, truly. I have been waiting my whole life for someone like you. I am so lucky to have you in my life. No one has ever bought me flowers before. I like you just for being you. You are so special."

These were common place statements for the brief time we were together.

Oddly enough, when she said she wasn't ready for anything serious (even though she showered me with platitudes) I did ask her if it was then okay if I saw other people if this wasn't really a "relationship". She said she wasn't looking for anyone else and that would make her feel uncomfortable but I was free to do as I please.

Huh?


Oddly enough, I suspect she is codependent as well. She bought me a gift the first date we ever had, and the second too!

Does a sufferer have the capacity to simply be honest with a partner and say, "Look, I am just not into you. I'm sorry. There is nothing more too it."?

I am acutely aware I cannot fix her problems, change her and so on. I do think I can be a supportive and patient friend / lover, someone to trust, confide in, and seek support *on her own terms*.

Thanks so much for your list of "inverse" behaviors. That makes me feel better.

But I suspect, I should not hold out either.

 

[franciemarnie]

I totally empathize with you. I have been there.

One thing stood out for me, when you said you've been thinking of her perhaps obsessively.

I want to preface what I am going to say by saying that how it was for me may not be remotely related to how it is with you, but I thought I would throw this out there.

There were years I obsessively thought about people I was involved with who were inconsistent and unpredictable in their communication and affections. One day a friend of mine who had been a therapist happened to mention that obsession is a substitute for identity. For me this was an epiphany. I only defined myself in relation to my significant others. If they were inconsistent and uncommunicative, I was driven practically nuts trying to get a clear understanding of how they felt about me so that I could settle down with a self based on their unambiguous take.

The more dysfunctional or sick they were, the more obsessed I was with trying to figure out where they were at. It was awful.

I learned to see myself only in other people's reflections when I was a little girl. I had a self but she was buried.

Since I discovered this and my little self, I tend not to think obsessively about people.

But sometimes I do - in my case - with my brother.

Again, this may not apply to you, but for me it was liberating to know that the other person wasn't so much the problem. It was my lack of identity.

Please forgive if this isn't you which it may very well not be!

 

[Abstract]

She said she wasn't looking for anyone else and that would make her feel uncomfortable but I was free to do as I please.

Huh?

What she is telling you loadly and clearly is that she has major intimacy issues. And things like that don't go away easily. As someone who has them too I know. If she does like you as much as she has indicated (quite possible from what you say) and she can't be around you then recovery from that is likely to be a long and hard process. So I think the real question is whether you can find a way to tolerate that. If you can't then this is likely to be destructive for you. I don't know if you have looked at attachment problems or not but I think it can be very relevant. People who have experienced abuse as children particularly tend to have these issues and I find worsened symptoms make them rear up strongly. You may even have your own but different attachment problems. Look at this site: http://www.pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm

She wants her cake and to eat it! Really though is she is leaving it up to you what you want to or are willing to do.

Does a sufferer have the capacity to simply be honest with a partner and say, "Look, I am just not into you. I'm sorry. There is nothing more too it."?

Absolutely. PTSD does not somehow take out the part of ones brain that allows one to be honest, assertive or direct. However, some people PTSD or not have problems with assertiveness or other things that contribute and would stop them doing just that. And for some problems with assertiveness can link to trauma.

There are also many people who play around in relationships without being direct! Just talking in general here.

I think Franciemarie brings up some important questions too.

 

[mixtapeheartache]

FrancieMarie is absolutely correct. I have always gathered my own self-esteem from how others around me are feeling. I have been actively seeing a counsellor and been going to codependent (CoDA) meetings recently. Everything you have said (generally) does apply to me, how I am feeling, and how I have always felt. But having this knowledge about one's lack of identity, this enlightenment, is one thing. What do you do with that knowledge, in a practical sense, to stop obsessing? To find yourself? To be... you?

My mother died when I was quite young and unfortunately, my father went into a deep depression and was unavailable emotionally. I have spent the better part of my life searching for affirmation, love, and belonging from external sources (something my parents, by no fault of their own, were unable to provide me).

I am extremely generous, both in relationships and otherwise. I am active philanthropically, and generally carry an immense amount of empathy and compassion for those suffering (both around me immediately and the world at large). I have always put the needs of other before my own needs. It just seems so natural to me.

I am luckier than most, and sharing my successes with others is both a gift, and perhaps a curse. I believe Mark Twain said, "Joy is best divided by two." :)

Abstract, as you can see, I definitely have attachment issues. Thank you for the link.

In the same breath, I am a man of philosophy, and this is something that I take to heart (paraphrasing):

We are all the children of Adam. When one of us suffers, it is as if everyone one of us is suffering. If you are indifferent to the one suffering, you cannot call yourself a man (woman).

I guess the question we need to ask ourselves is, to what length? What is wrong with caring, loving another as the same or more than oneself?

P.S. I do the same with my brother, too, Francie. :)

 

[franciemarnie]

Oh man, I so identify.

When my therapist friend mentioned the obsession-lack of identity thing I was in my 20's. I didn't know what to do or how to apply the knowledge. It helped me detach somewhat though. Just a little, but enough where I knew my happiness did not depend on the one I was obsessing over. It felt like it did, like if I could just get that love or affirmation, then the hole in my soul would stop aching so bad. But just knowing it was a substitute undermined the intensity. Also reviewing all the obsessions I had had helped too. Then it didn't feel quite so life and death every time. I knew it was an illusion.

I hadn't developed many interests outside of reading books. I was the caretaker always. I did try my hand at acting but when other actors were critical of my success, the strength of their antipathy utterly destroyed my fragile sense of self and I would plummet and get out of the thing I was doing. My self was so insubstantial that it seemed ultimately better to be alone because an unkind word from even a stranger would send me in a tailspin. And alone I stayed for 20 years.

Now, it isn't like that anymore except sometimes with my brother who is the only family I have left. Sometimes I still react to him as if his pronouncements were from God. Getting better with this though.

Ultimately, I had to discover what I loved to do and then follow my heart. That has made my insides strong because when I stand in my truth now, not much can knock me down - not for long anyway.

I thought I wanted to act when I was young but I really wanted the chance to be someone else and to give myself the opportunity to feel and express what I wouldn't or couldn't back then. There were other things I discovered I loved to do but it took a while to find them.

You sound like an extraordinary person, and a wonderful person. It is tough now going thru this, but your day will come. I feel very strongly your joy is on its way. Not that that helps you any while you're going thru this.

 

[mixtapeheartache]

Thanks for the generous compliments, yet I am nothing more than a man. :)

 

[Abstract]

mixtapeheartache,
I struggled to try to reconcile what was healthy caring for others and empathy and what was unhealthy. I wanted to get better at being able to protect myself but did not want to loose the part of me that cares about others. Its been a long road but I think I now have it figured out.

Caring for others should not happen in a way where we loose ourselves or loose touch with ourselves and our needs. And it shouldn't come with either intense need and panic or exaggerated feelings of power or responsibility. I hope that makes sense.

There is a difference between being-in-touch-with-others and having the intense need to be needed and to fix situations in order to have some sense of being OK. Of needing the reflection of who we are in the others eyes in order to be OK or to even exist. Because those things are really entirely about us and not about caring for someone else as we usually think they are.


We don't have to give up on healthy caring and empathic behaviour in order to fight the unhealthy. We don't have to become someone that we are not and loose an important skill we have. But a lot of behaviour is not healthy and hides a lot.
Good for you for your self awareness!