Summer Ava
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About pain sensitivity, I recently heard in a webinar from Dr. Kathleen Kendall-Tacket, the President of APA's Division of Trauma Psychology, that psychological trauma can lower physical pain thresholds.
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Autonomic Dysregulation? Connections To This Whole Trauma Mess?
- Post starter Chava
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- #14
anthony
Founder
Interesting... was just reading one of her documents:
Pain is thought to be more common among survivors of violence because traumatic events appear to physiologically lower their pain thresholds (Kendall-Tackett, 2000). Neurons have the capacity to change function, chemical profile, or structure because of neuronal plasticity. Traumatic events can trigger these physiologic changes, and create a hypersensitivity to subsequent stimuli. Hypersensitivity often translates into increased pain. Some consider this hypersensitivity a major evolutionary advantage, in that it makes an individual more aware of potential danger. However, the increased pain that accompanies hypersensitivity makes day-to-day living difficult for women who have experienced violence (Woolf & Salter, 2000). It can limit the activities that women participate in, inhibit their ability to exercise, work, or perform basic household tasks, and make it difficult to care for children. Chronic pain can also interfere with sleep, making daytime fatigue a problem too. Indeed, chronic pain can influence every aspect of a woman’s life.
http://www.uppitysciencechick.com/chronicpainandVAW.pdf
My only issue is that she is citing herself with that statement... I will keep digging.
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- #15
anthony
Founder
Hmmm.... she cited one study elsewhere:
But one recent study (Scarinci et al., 1994) found that IBS patients with a history of abuse had altered sensations of pain. Relative to the non-abused patients, abused patients had significantly lower pain threshold levels in response to finger pressure and significantly lower cognitive standards for judging a stimuli as noxious.
http://www.neurofeedbackclinic.ca/journals/ptsd/ptsd01.pdf
As for its source, I can't get that one to determine any validity, being only one study and not specifically trauma focused: "Altered pain perception and psychosocial features among women with gastrointestinal disorders and history of abuse: A preliminary model"
But one recent study (Scarinci et al., 1994) found that IBS patients with a history of abuse had altered sensations of pain. Relative to the non-abused patients, abused patients had significantly lower pain threshold levels in response to finger pressure and significantly lower cognitive standards for judging a stimuli as noxious.
http://www.neurofeedbackclinic.ca/journals/ptsd/ptsd01.pdf
As for its source, I can't get that one to determine any validity, being only one study and not specifically trauma focused: "Altered pain perception and psychosocial features among women with gastrointestinal disorders and history of abuse: A preliminary model"
Friday
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@anthony Can you get into the Peer Review database(s)? US studies are so freakishly short and underpopulated... But socialized med countries have some serious data to work with in looking for correlations. At least, the data is there, if people formulate their studies properly. I mean, that study only had only just over100 people in it, was 6 questions long, and was part of new patient paperwork. Holes big enough to drive a truck through it. I'm surprised it passed peer review.
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- #17
anthony
Founder
I can access the databases from libraries here, yes... but I don't frequent those often.
Eagle3
Platinum Member
I am so glad you guys posted this. I've been going through those symptoms, to the point my lips were turning blue with any exercise/movement, and NO DOCTOR could figure out why, or believe that it was happening since I couldn't reproduce it in the office. I still regularly question my ability to work out (I'm a professional athlete, and I can't do my job anymore) because I never know if everything is going to crap out on me. How do you get a public doctor to listen to you? I've even given them each symptom in a list form, with accompanying documentation on dysautonomia, and no one is listening to me. I have found some relief from an accupressure practitioner, but I don't know if I'm ever going to be able to go back to my prior level of training, which sucks because that is my only real reason to live. Right now all I do is what I can do, and lots of rest and sleep in between...for someone who hates being lazy, this is really frustrating! But its good to know I'm not the only one.
I'm not sure if this relates or not, but yesterday I spent from morning to midnight researching Wilson's Disease. I went to my Neuro the day before and was told that my CT & EEG's were normal. However, I have a condition called hyper-ammonemia (too much ammonia in the blood).
Naturally this made me interested in what could be the cause of this new problem, and I discovered it is related to my liver/biliary/kidney functions being impaired….which comes as no surprise because I've know for a while now about having liver dysfunction. Anyway, the more I dug, the more I began to link my symptoms to WD. The ONLY thing left for me to have tested is a 24 hour ammonia test in my urine, and a slit lamp exam for Kayser-Fleisher rings around the circumference of my corneas. KF rings are considered a definitive sign of a positive for WD, along with the urine test.
What is really scary is that of course I looked up eyeballs on Google images, and have found several diagnosed sets of WD eyes that are EXACTLY the same as mine. My eyes are actually bottle green and feathering out from pupils in both eyes is a spread of copper coloring. Hmmmmmm……..I always just thought they were pretty!!!!
After further research, I found an article that tells the story of how many, many mental illnesses are actually misdiagnosed and rare conditions like WD is actually the culprit. The article further tells how Psych's don't really look at physiological illnesses and miss certain signs that indicate ill physical health. Basically, I think I have a metabolic disorder that impairs my body in the disposal of copper. Hence the copper rings in my eyes. I still don't have a diagnosis and hopefully, depending on POV, my illness is something that can be treated easily. It still doesn't erase the trauma, but maybe by treating the physical aspect my symptoms will ease up. Baring advanced, irreparable disease stage requiring transplant, WD is treated by chelation therapy and life long maintenance with diet and medication---- and of court, no more foods rich in copper. Without treatment, end stage is coma and death.
The article relied heavily on the mind/body connection and basically indicated that up until recent decades, and still in some archaic societies, docs and shrinks were/are NOT on the same page in that they didn'/don't take the whole big picture into consideration. In looking back over my weird and random symptoms for the last five years, I would diagnose myself with WD or at least rule it out.
When I first went into ER for my migraines and bilious vomiting, my labs were off and the doctor indicated that my blood work was fine. I had high mean corpuscular hemoglobin (MCH), high neutrophils, low lymphocytes and low potassium…..and I was deemed FINE!!!! Along with my headaches and vomiting, I clearly had more that just a simple migraine and should have been admitted for further testing. Best case scenario I had an infection or virus. Worse case, I might not be having liver dysfunction NOW, as well as a whole other set of physical symptoms. High cholesterol, arthritis, poly-axonal neuropathy, fibro, immunoglobulin G deficiency…..and the list goes on. I think my poor mind triggered my physical stuff…….and now I am falling apart all over the place.
Now---this doesn't mean that there is anything seriously wrong and I am NOT a doctor. However, for those of you who are interested in being proactive about your physical health, there is a website called the Isabel Symptom Checker. You list ALL of your symptoms and it will return differential diagnoses that you can at least present to your doctor for ruling serious disease. Co-incidentally, in early stages WD typically presents with psychiatric symptoms and migraine headache…….
Naturally this made me interested in what could be the cause of this new problem, and I discovered it is related to my liver/biliary/kidney functions being impaired….which comes as no surprise because I've know for a while now about having liver dysfunction. Anyway, the more I dug, the more I began to link my symptoms to WD. The ONLY thing left for me to have tested is a 24 hour ammonia test in my urine, and a slit lamp exam for Kayser-Fleisher rings around the circumference of my corneas. KF rings are considered a definitive sign of a positive for WD, along with the urine test.
What is really scary is that of course I looked up eyeballs on Google images, and have found several diagnosed sets of WD eyes that are EXACTLY the same as mine. My eyes are actually bottle green and feathering out from pupils in both eyes is a spread of copper coloring. Hmmmmmm……..I always just thought they were pretty!!!!
After further research, I found an article that tells the story of how many, many mental illnesses are actually misdiagnosed and rare conditions like WD is actually the culprit. The article further tells how Psych's don't really look at physiological illnesses and miss certain signs that indicate ill physical health. Basically, I think I have a metabolic disorder that impairs my body in the disposal of copper. Hence the copper rings in my eyes. I still don't have a diagnosis and hopefully, depending on POV, my illness is something that can be treated easily. It still doesn't erase the trauma, but maybe by treating the physical aspect my symptoms will ease up. Baring advanced, irreparable disease stage requiring transplant, WD is treated by chelation therapy and life long maintenance with diet and medication---- and of court, no more foods rich in copper. Without treatment, end stage is coma and death.
The article relied heavily on the mind/body connection and basically indicated that up until recent decades, and still in some archaic societies, docs and shrinks were/are NOT on the same page in that they didn'/don't take the whole big picture into consideration. In looking back over my weird and random symptoms for the last five years, I would diagnose myself with WD or at least rule it out.
When I first went into ER for my migraines and bilious vomiting, my labs were off and the doctor indicated that my blood work was fine. I had high mean corpuscular hemoglobin (MCH), high neutrophils, low lymphocytes and low potassium…..and I was deemed FINE!!!! Along with my headaches and vomiting, I clearly had more that just a simple migraine and should have been admitted for further testing. Best case scenario I had an infection or virus. Worse case, I might not be having liver dysfunction NOW, as well as a whole other set of physical symptoms. High cholesterol, arthritis, poly-axonal neuropathy, fibro, immunoglobulin G deficiency…..and the list goes on. I think my poor mind triggered my physical stuff…….and now I am falling apart all over the place.
Now---this doesn't mean that there is anything seriously wrong and I am NOT a doctor. However, for those of you who are interested in being proactive about your physical health, there is a website called the Isabel Symptom Checker. You list ALL of your symptoms and it will return differential diagnoses that you can at least present to your doctor for ruling serious disease. Co-incidentally, in early stages WD typically presents with psychiatric symptoms and migraine headache…….
@Eagle 3-
Blue lips are indicative of hypoxia. Hypoxia can mean anything from anemia to cardiovascular disease, BTW. If your public health doctor ignores you, go to the emergency room and hopefully they will run some tests. Here in the U.S. Hospitals are required to treat you for such things……I would think. Hypoxia can quickly deteriorate to coma and brain damage if it is not treated.
Blue lips are indicative of hypoxia. Hypoxia can mean anything from anemia to cardiovascular disease, BTW. If your public health doctor ignores you, go to the emergency room and hopefully they will run some tests. Here in the U.S. Hospitals are required to treat you for such things……I would think. Hypoxia can quickly deteriorate to coma and brain damage if it is not treated.
- Post starter
- #21
@Eagle3 ....yes, hypoxia fears here...keep bugging doctors. Could be connected to all kinds of physiological responses but basically means NOT ENOUGH OXYGEN (my lips turned blue shortly before my lung collapsed).
@circe47 Thanks for the post...though kind of scares me. I do think it's hard for even good doctors to sort some of this interwoven stuff out. I'm having a really hard time coming down from stress lately....like my body feels it is meeting an oncoming truck ALL THE TIME. For me, now I'm hoping an adjustment to some hormone stuff will help. My doctor says I'm really sensitive to whatever is floating around my bloodstream. Base hormones are already probably screwed up, so any imbalance elsewhere makes my whole body fall apart. I'm on verge of nervous breakdown where someone else might just be a little crabby.
I do shift between over-heated and too cold sometimes still...over-heating has some to do with hormones, more with anxiety and feeling amped up. Feeling cold is like really primitive and my body is in an ever more scared place or I'm entering a safety bubble. Usually it's on the slowing down or numbing out end. As for real temperatures, I barely tolerate anything outside of 71-72. I've been quite diligent with exercise, but sleep has gone to crap, even doubling my sedatives....so it's frustrating to always work so hard just to feel functional or kind of normal for any string of days.
@circe47 Thanks for the post...though kind of scares me. I do think it's hard for even good doctors to sort some of this interwoven stuff out. I'm having a really hard time coming down from stress lately....like my body feels it is meeting an oncoming truck ALL THE TIME. For me, now I'm hoping an adjustment to some hormone stuff will help. My doctor says I'm really sensitive to whatever is floating around my bloodstream. Base hormones are already probably screwed up, so any imbalance elsewhere makes my whole body fall apart. I'm on verge of nervous breakdown where someone else might just be a little crabby.
I do shift between over-heated and too cold sometimes still...over-heating has some to do with hormones, more with anxiety and feeling amped up. Feeling cold is like really primitive and my body is in an ever more scared place or I'm entering a safety bubble. Usually it's on the slowing down or numbing out end. As for real temperatures, I barely tolerate anything outside of 71-72. I've been quite diligent with exercise, but sleep has gone to crap, even doubling my sedatives....so it's frustrating to always work so hard just to feel functional or kind of normal for any string of days.
Eagle3
Platinum Member
Thankfully the blue lips have cleared up, but still can't shake the feeling of not being able to breathe normally, or sing without feeling like I'm gonna pass out. Fairly certain that my ANS is fritizing out, but no one believes me since I unconsciously put on such a normal front in the doctors' office (they trigger me horribly, I hate doctors!). Hoping getting my tonsils removed will help with the squeezing feeling in my trachea/upper lung area, but I just don't know anymore....it just sucks feeling all this so strongly, and having no one believe you, or just write it all off as PTSD.
- Post starter
- #23
@Eagle3 Did they take any blood for lab checks? Did they check your O2 levels? Panic can create breathing difficulties, so can lots of muscle tension around chest/back or neck, but you seem to be experiencing more like circulatory or low O2 symptoms (not sure how that relates directly to ANS involvement...those symptoms for me were really related to lung disease, or sometimes mineral imbalances, so I wouldn't mess with it). If you put on a normal front at the doctors, I'm wondering if they did these extra tests. I just replied to your new thread...but will add again that it would be wise to write down these symptoms and bring to a doctor if you don't feel comfortable voicing your concerns. Don't mess with literal limb numbness, breathing difficulties, especially in combination with blue lips or chest pains. I don't know what it could be, but I'd go to the doctor with all of these. Did you at least bring up the breathing issue? Did they feel it was anxiety related?
Hope you start feeling better soon!
Hope you start feeling better soon!
@Eagle3 did they check for esophageal spasm? In another post you mentioned extremities spasming, which sounded like Restless Leg Syndrome, but this sounds like spasms in general. In my body, I suffered years from spasms all over my body that I thought were due to purely physical stressors or injuries. I have esophageal spasms (ES) but I also suffered from spasms all over from living with anxiety.
However, now that I take Xanax, I am no longer in pain with constant spasms in my chest, back, hands, and legs. Basically, I was permanently tense, clenching my jaw and getting headaches. All of that. With ES, it hurts to breath and it can make you pass out.
With blue lips, that is pretty severe. If you had spasms in your esophagus, weird as it sounds, one type of esophageal spasm "slaps your heart" and can cause it to temporarily stop or go into arrhythmia. Since you have the symptoms of esoph. spasm, triggered by cold or very hot drinks, (ice water and milkshakes or smoothies being the worst, thick and cold) and HUNGER. These, and rich and dense foods that are difficult to swallow, can trigger Esoph. Spasm. Have you passed out from the chest pinching and tightness? That can be a symptom of panic also, so I can't tell you what that is. A good Dr. should be able to do some tests and figure out what may be at work.
Questions:
What meds do you take? Have you tried the extended release meds for anxiety? Xanax XR is what has worked best for me so far. In taking Ativan, which is short-lived, I got rebound anxiety, and it left me on a roller coaster. You said you have optional amounts of meds to take at night. I wonder if these have a short half-life and leave your anxiety too high the next day?
Maybe a low dose of an extended release to reduce your baseline anxiety levels without feeling too sedated would reduce your anxiety level and the spasms.
I also find that magnesium, increasing protein and B vitamins in a mild multivitamin (I like FocusFactor from Costco) increases my energy in a natural way.
Limit caffeine to the AM, and avoid nicotine. These are things to try. I hope you find out what is happening.
Love your picture!!! I am a lab person, too.
Take care, Muse
However, now that I take Xanax, I am no longer in pain with constant spasms in my chest, back, hands, and legs. Basically, I was permanently tense, clenching my jaw and getting headaches. All of that. With ES, it hurts to breath and it can make you pass out.
With blue lips, that is pretty severe. If you had spasms in your esophagus, weird as it sounds, one type of esophageal spasm "slaps your heart" and can cause it to temporarily stop or go into arrhythmia. Since you have the symptoms of esoph. spasm, triggered by cold or very hot drinks, (ice water and milkshakes or smoothies being the worst, thick and cold) and HUNGER. These, and rich and dense foods that are difficult to swallow, can trigger Esoph. Spasm. Have you passed out from the chest pinching and tightness? That can be a symptom of panic also, so I can't tell you what that is. A good Dr. should be able to do some tests and figure out what may be at work.
Questions:
What meds do you take? Have you tried the extended release meds for anxiety? Xanax XR is what has worked best for me so far. In taking Ativan, which is short-lived, I got rebound anxiety, and it left me on a roller coaster. You said you have optional amounts of meds to take at night. I wonder if these have a short half-life and leave your anxiety too high the next day?
Maybe a low dose of an extended release to reduce your baseline anxiety levels without feeling too sedated would reduce your anxiety level and the spasms.
I also find that magnesium, increasing protein and B vitamins in a mild multivitamin (I like FocusFactor from Costco) increases my energy in a natural way.
Limit caffeine to the AM, and avoid nicotine. These are things to try. I hope you find out what is happening.
Love your picture!!! I am a lab person, too.
Take care, Muse
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