Boundaries.

[Philippa]

Yes, I'm reminding myself that it's a good thing that I'm away from her.

I don't really know what this other woman thinks, and I was stopping myself yesterday from getting carried away trying to impose what I think she thinks, or what the other person has told her about me, as I know it's none of my business and I will never really know anyway.

Just wanting to focus on the good people in my life now and not worry about any of it. Just have to cut my losses sometimes...and sometimes it isn't even a loss, it's a gain.

She displays borderline traits...the frenemy. I also think she may have ptsd, but she doesn't believe in diagnosis. She thinks I'm mean, even though she is the one who gave psychoactive mushrooms to a psych patient?

I don't want to think about it any more or give her any energy. I just needed to vent because otherwise I start dwelling on things and can't stop. It's how my mind seems to work.

 

[scout86]

My mind tend to work that way too, unless I have the presence of mind to stop it. LOL Sounds like you're making a good choice!

 

[Philippa]

Thankyou. I'm better at stopping it these days, and distraction works well also. Earlier I had the experience of totally letting it go and letting them have each other and that felt really good. :)

 

[Deleted member 1860]

IS that actually what you meant to say? When does "Stop" not mean stop, exactly?

Yep, that's EXACTLY what I meant to say! Don't think you can commit some heinous crime like rape or murder and I won't press your ass on it! Just because someone says no doesn't mean that something should be dropped. You treat me like shit and I'm not going to let it drop because you want to ignore the fact that you've done anything wrong. It's called standing up for yourself and standing up for what is right.

ETA

I think that we've all had our boundaries violated so many people swing the opposite way and think that ALL boundary violation is bad. NOPE! In that case you'd end up being a doormat as you're saying that their "right" to do whatever they want supercedes your (and others) well being. I don't buy it.

 

[Philippa]

That's exactly how I felt Solara, and it pissed me off that she tried to shut me down like that without even hearing me, and then made me out to be harassing her when I was questioning everything she said to me. I took a lot more words and time to do it, and I can see how my essay length replies might have felt like 'harassment' in her mind, as she was giving very short sentences and not using many words. That doesn't mean I was harassing her though, it means she didn't like me continuing on about the subject she wanted to avoid!

Why is her desire to ignore the issue more important than my need to feel heard and acknowledged? Just because she didn't want to face her feelings about what she did...which I KNOW deep down was digging at her conscience. I could FEEL that she was embarrassed and felt guilty about it, but instead of admitting to it, she acted as though I was the bad guy and thought I'd just lay down and take it! The woman I've been seeing for massage and counselling even said that it's a sign of caring about a friend to not allow her to avoid the issue when it's important.

The other woman was saying she didn't think I was blaming her for the incident...and I wasn't blaming as such, though I WAS holding her accountable and trying to express how pissed off I was to be put in that position without losing it at her. The fact that the other woman tried to protect her and make excuses for her behaviour speaks volumes about her as well. Does loving a friend mean protecting them from the truth of their own stupidity and carelessness, or does it mean pointing it out to them so as to hold them accountable when necessary?

 

[scout86]

@Solara , I was pretty sure you meant it the way you said it, but I wanted to be sure.

So, who gets to decide when "No" means no, and how is the decision made? Because it seems to me a rapist or child molester probably has some way of rationalizing the meaning THEY want out of the word too. I understand that it's frustrating not to be allowed to make your point or express your views. Someone who DOES take "No" for an answer in a sexual situation most likely experiences some frustration too. Can you, either of you, explain to me how this situation is different? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see where there's a difference.

 

[Philippa]

I can see what you are saying scout86, and it's an interesting debate...I appreciate your perspective, even if I don't quite agree.

I think the difference is that we were supposedly friends, and stopping me from speaking because she didn't want to look at something I was pointing out to her as her own f*ck up, after tactfully manipulating the focus of the conversation back around to me taking for granted the hospitality of the house, is a bit different to raping someone.

Yes, it's her saying no to my need to be heard and acknowledged, but in disobeying her I am not seriously traumatising or causing actual harm to her, I am just not obeying her will, the same way she is not wanting to look at what I am trying to point out to her

Doing that and then turning around and telling me I am not allowed to speak any more isn't exactly a fair way of conversing either. She basically was saying "I'm not going to look at what you are saying but I am free to tell you that you are at fault here and then tell you to stop talking when you try and respond to me telling you this and you must obey this or I will not be your friend any more". That's a pretty aggressive form of manipulation. Am I obliged to obey someone hitting me with that?

That's the most obvious difference I can think of in the scenarios you presented. I can see where she was coming from and I knew she had a lot on her plate at the time and probably didn't have the energy, as a mother, to give me at that time...which I accepted.

Initially I did respect her wishes and asked when she might be feeling more up to discussing it as I thought it was important...to which she did not reply. That is what set me off to start expressing my frustration at not only being accused of things I didn't think were fair, but also be shut down. I saw that she had seen my request and she chose to ignore it...which pissed me off. That is when I thought "f*ck it, I'm gonna keep going because she is not respecting me here".

There is no communication or compromise with a rapist. They want what they want and they don't care at all if you don't want it...in fact some prefer it if you don't so they can see you squirm. I was not trying to be disrespectful, I reacted to her display of disrespect. I attempted to make a time with her to speak about it and she ignored me...or at least did not respond at all.

She did not want to make a time later, she didn't want to speak about it at all because she knew she had f*cked up royally. She turned it around to make it about me and my poor contribution to their weed sharing and then made out as though she were saying it because I was 'such a good friend'.

 

[Philippa]

She later told the woman she lives with that it was just to make me back off and she thought we could work it out later on down the track, even though I was not allowed in her house and her hostility towards me lasted for many weeks afterwards, despite me not having any hostility towards her beyond the first day after it happened and I hated her guts.

I got over it pretty quickly and thought we'd probably patch things up at some point down the track, but after the incident where her house mate decided to invite me around to her house behind her back one day a few weeks later, assuring me that the woman was gone for hours and it was ok, and I went around there with much hesitation in case she decided to return early...which is exactly what happened and had to leave...which was most uncomfortable and left me kinda pissed off at this person for putting me in that situation in the first place without running it by the other woman first, I realised that this woman had done this to me a number of times in the past...where her feelings mattered more than mine and I was not heard or given the chance to speak, and it was then that I decided that I didn't want to be friends with her again or patch things up.

I felt as though her feelings were the only ones that mattered to her, and mine were unimportant, which is also how I felt with the way my mother and father responded when I would try and express feelings to them about things they had done. It was something I struggled immensely with and was always a risk that exactly THIS would happen...which has now carried over to female friends also behaving this way towards me.

It's this thing about where someone elses feelings are always more important than mine are...that is the message I seem to receive from mothers, in particular. Not all, but certainly many I have had friendships with. This idea that mothers are more important than anyone else is what I loathe and I've experienced it a lot. Just because mothers are keeping society going does not mean their feelings are more important than anyone elses and I do not have to always obey people who tell me to stop when they don't like something I say.

 

[scout86]

Doing that and then turning around and telling me I am not allowed to speak any more isn't exactly a fair way of conversing either

I absolutely, totally agree with you on this. I don't know her and don't know how she usually operates. It sounds like she's, at best, not very good at communicating. Maybe also not very good at owning her own opinions and actions and, when in doubt, she shifts the blame to someone else.

Am I obliged to obey someone hitting me with that?

No, I don't think you're obligated to obey. I don't think obeying is a good idea, But, you can accept "No" for an answer without obeying. You can walk away, for example.

So, back to "boundaries". "No" means no and ought to be respected when something physical is involved? (I'm using "No". You could substitute "stop" or any other "cease and desist" kind of terminology.)

but in disobeying her I am not seriously traumatising or causing actual harm to her,

Well, to push this a little farther, who gets to decide what's "traumatic"? What if the person you're dealing with has a different idea about what's traumatic? In this particular case, I don't think you were actually harming her either. I think you were probably wasting your time, trying to reason with someone who's not reasonable, but it's YOUR time, you can do with it what you want. But, seriously, whose definition of "harm" or "when to quit" should we use, when we're dealing with others?

 

[Philippa]

I absolutely, totally agree with you on this. I don't know her and don't know how she usually operates. It sounds like she's, at best, not very good at communicating. Maybe also not very good at owning her own opinions and actions and, when in doubt, she shifts the blame to someone else.

Definitely how she operates.

No, I don't think you're obligated to obey. I don't think obeying is a good idea, But, you can accept "No" for an answer without obeying. You can walk away, for example.

Yes, I could have done this. I am not good at doing this when my goat gets up.

So, back to "boundaries". "No" means no and ought to be respected when something physical is involved? (I'm using "No". You could substitute "stop" or any other "cease and desist" kind of terminology.)

Absolutely! When its something physical, "no" means no and needs to be respected immediately. Obviously, this was a verbal communication issue though, not something physical.

Well, to push this a little farther, who gets to decide what's "traumatic"? What if the person you're dealing with has a different idea about what's traumatic?

Yes, this is true. Different people experience trauma differently and over different scenarios. What is traumatic to me may not be something someone else finds traumatic. Someone less in touch with their sensitivities will not experience the same degree of pain or trauma as a very sensitive person (which she is).

In this particular case, I don't think you were actually harming her either. I think you were probably wasting your time, trying to reason with someone who's not reasonable, but it's YOUR time, you can do with it what you want. But, seriously, whose definition of "harm" or "when to quit" should we use, when we're dealing with others?

I think that is a good point. When a person is feeling frustrated at someone shutting them down it is very difficult to be able to, in the moment, recognise that pushing past a boundary is going to cause any harm or anything beyond displeasure at having their wishes not obeyed. I did not recognise until later that she was probably not coping very well with everything else on her plate at the time...dissolved marriage but with her ex still living nearby and trying to woo her back and putting all his emotional stuff onto her...kids who hate her for leaving him and issues with her lover (whom she cheated on her ex husband with) as well as alcoholism to boot! She did not need one more person telling her what a f*ck up she is!