"victim Available Here" Label On My Forehead

[Sandstone]

I've had two recent reminders that something about me marks me as an ideal victim.

In my childhood and teens I was abused/assaulted/ groomed/ by four different, wholly unconnected people. Two were total strangers to me before the relevant day. Yet each knew I would be the one to use.

Yesterday I saw in the papers that one former colleague is being tried for stalking and sending threatening to another, after she rejected his advances. Initially it was just an interesting bit of gossip, but then I remembered how he used to invite me into his office, take every chance to get into conversation, pop in to see me in my office regularly and for no good reason. The other woman in my office regularly joked "Oh, he likes you", but I just thought he was a bit of a prat. Never had any sort of instinctive warning about him, but he obviously recognised something in me.

The other reminder is just too complex to unravel here. I tried in my diary and my mind just won't.

What really distresses me is that both things happened in the couple of years before the delayed onset of my PTSD, when I was at my mentally healthiest ever. Yet still that label persists. And still my ability to recognise danger was absent. It makes me feel so vulnerable.

 

[ms spock]

That you have noticed that you have been socialised to be a victim, is a tremendous insight. Now you can start to learn protective behaviours for yourself. Very brave to face up to that.

 

[Sandstone]

How would I go about learning protective behaviours? And how would I know that I needed to apply them in any given situation?

(Minor rant on the side. I'm so sick of being told I have insight. having insight is a bit like passing exams with good grades - it's something I expect to be able to do. I end up feeling like I've only posted in order to be praised. All I want to do I is find a way to move on from having the insight to using it. Sorry @Ms Spock , I'm not aiming this at you, it's just frustration at not being able to move from knowing stuff to applying it)

 

[City Slicker]

And still my ability to recognise danger was absent.

Hi @stenni. I have often wondered this about my own ability to recognize danger and to also recognize when I am reading danger when there's none present.

In the situation you raised with the colleague, it's the end result (the colleague stalking the other one) that determined whether your danger recognizing abilities were present and you feel you were lacking. Sometimes we do let the outcome of a situation determine how we should have felt in the present.

I don't believe danger-recognizing is that black and white - I think we have an ability to recognize danger without knowing we are recognizing it.

In my life, I know that frequently my 'instincts' are operating below the conscious level. Sometimes I become aware of them operating and sometimes not. It's usually when I have a feeling to do something and I go against it that I become aware that my ability to recognize danger is working.

For instance while out running I may get a sudden urge to run on a different route for no reason at all. When I question it I suddenly become aware that there is a 'warning' becoming conscious - and then I have the choice to follow or not. But usually the 'warning or danger prgram'' 'runs in the background', kind of like a computer program - you know it's there but never see it.

@stenni, is it possible that there are times your instincts are running but they might not be consciously present? Think about how many situations you face in the course of a day - simple situations where you make quick decisions about all kinds of things that seem simple. But they only seem simple because the safe outcomes define them as such.

We never know how the actions we take with seemingly simple decisions prevent unsafe things from happening.

I can't quantitatively say that because I suddenly listened to a protective voice telling me to run on a different road that I prevented a horrible thing from happening.

In other words, we can never can measure the things we prevent from happening.

 

[scout86]

but I just thought he was a bit of a prat.

I'm not sure what a "prat" is, but I'm guessing it's not a compliment? How did the situation with him end up? Did you end up in a relationship with him outside of work? If so, did that go badly or end badly? I got the impression nothing happened beyond him being a pest. Did I get that wrong?

"These People" are about like anyone else in the "sales" business. They attempt a lot of pitches for a much smaller number of "successes". If he tried to "catch" you and gave up, maybe that was because you DIDN'T look like an ideal victim?

I'm not saying I have this all figured out. I don't and I know I don't. What I have, at the moment, is sort of a working hypothesis.

I think "These People" realize that they can succeed if they are dealing with someone who values themselves and their own needs little enough. I seriously doubt they can detect that at first glance. I suspect they have to get to know someone a bit to come to that conclusion. The first part of the "grooming" process, maybe? Most people won't fit the bill and they will move on and keep looking. I'm not so sure this is a well thought out plan, I think it might just be the way they operate and they probably develop their technique with practice, like anything else. And I suspect this exists on all kinds of levels from annoying but fairly harmless, all the way up to serial killers and true sexual predators. What it takes on THEIR side is a person who is only concerned about themselves and what THEY want and who sees other people as existing to serve these needs. What it takes on the victim's side is a "willingness" to buy into the same road map. In general, I think you stay out of these situations by sticking up for yourself and insisting that people treat you with respect.

There's a whole other kind of "danger" that comes from someone hiding in the shadows of a dark alley, with a weapon. Different deal. Different kind of predator.

I don't know that you have to recognize someone like your old office mate as a "danger". I think it's sufficient to recognize him as a jerk and avoid him. He's going to be looking for someone who's willing to worship him and give him the recognition he thinks he deserves.

 

[Sandstone]

'm not sure what a "prat" is,

"an incompetent or stupid person" Oxford Dictionary

If he tried to "catch" you and gave up, maybe that was because you DIDN'T look like an ideal victim?

I think that as contentedly married woman, I was simply not aware that he was anything more than an irritation. There having been other occasions when I just haven't been aware a man was expressing an interest in me. When I was single it was source of amusement to my friends. The outcome of the other occasion was much grimmer. I have to accept that I'm not good at recognising danger signs, OR at reacting to them, OR at getting out or resisting once I'm into the danger.

is it possible that there are times your instincts are running but they might not be consciously present? Think about how many situations you face in the course of a day - simple situations where you make quick decisions about all kinds of things that seem simple.

Nowadays I've swung in the opposite direction, and barely leave the house alone, because everything looks dangerous. That is just as much a failure of my radar. There has to be a way to tune it properly

 

[Sandstone]

Oh how bizarre!

I had been planning to read today about the Window of Tolerance, based on something my T said yesterday. And what did I find in http://www.wheretheclientis.com/2010/02/03/book-excerpt-mindsight-by-daniel-siegel-md/
A discussion on how we may choose to live separated from our bodies
followed by the paragraph

If you are vertically integrated, you can read what your body is telling you about your safety or danger, including signs far more subtle than running away or fainting. You may feel a certain tension when you’re walking down the street and only then realize that someone is following you. Or you get a feeling that you just can’t trust the person you’re talking with. In everyday life, having access to subcortical energy and information is also essential to thinking. Being aware of these subcortical impulses enables you to know how you feel, alerts you to your needs, helps you prioritize your choices, and then moves you to make a decision. This is how “gut sensations” or “heartfelt feelings” help us live our lives fully.

I've ben thinking about how my body isn't me, and about howI am separated from feeling my emotions by not being able to identify them. And now this links in too

 

[ghotiff]

I think that I tend to see the good in people as a first impression. I think that they way I was misunderstood as a child makes me more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt and not judge them too quickly. Couple this with my grooming and you have a dangerous combination.

To counter this I have found people/friends that I trust to have a good ability to know when to trust someone-else and I base my trust in their judgement of the new person. In other words I take my friends negatives about a new person very seriously, particularly if they can't articulate it. It's not a great solution but it works for me.

 

[ms spock]

When you are at delayed onset of PTSD doesn't mean you were mentally healthy. It means that you were not in contact with what had happened.

How would I go about learning protective behaviours? And how would I know that I needed to apply them in any given situation?

With practice, and you need boundaries and limits and an ability to scan people to see if they are appropriate in every situation.

For example not every person on myptsd forum is safe, mentally well and okay for you to be around. So you have to work out those people that are good for you, those that are not so bad and those that are definitely not for you to hang around with.

I'm so sick of being told I have insight.

I get it - as it really does not acknowledge what you were really talking. I get this all the time and it is annoying. On the other hand if you don't have the insight you are screwed. For instance if you keep putting yourself in dangerous situations and getting repeatedly raped, and you have no insight that you are putting yourself in dangerous situations, then you will continue to put yourself in dangerous situations and you will continue to get raped. So insight is important. In Australia this year they are bringing attention to women killed in domestic violent situations, there's been a few in the media - not having insight that they were in immediate danger means those women are dead now. (Along with systemic problems of gender inequality and lack of protection of women and children in Australia.)

[DLMURL]https://www.myptsd.com/c/albums/the-mindful-way-through-depression-full-youtube.802/[/DLMURL]
I listen to this and do the body scan every day so I am trying to get more in contact with my body. It is helpful for me, it might be helpful for you.

 

[Sandstone]

I listen to this and do the body scan every day so I am trying to get more in contact with my body. It is helpful for me, it might be helpful for you.

Oh, thank you! I've just read about this and was wondering if anything was available on it. I shall hope to add it to the daily practice my T has suggested.

not every person on myptsd forum is safe, mentally well and okay for you to be around.

Once again - this had never occurred to me. I'd only seen it as me having nothing to offer to some people.

When you are at delayed onset of PTSD doesn't mean you were mentally healthy. It means that you were not in contact with what had happened

I'd done quite a bit of work over the preceding 15 years, with Rape Crisis, relationship counsellors and a bit with a therapist. I knew my past was impacting on me and needed resolution. I had no idea quite how much was still in the box, but I was way, way ahead of where I'd been inmy teens and twenties

To counter this I have found people/friends that I trust to have a good ability to know when to trust someone-else and I base my trust in their judgement of the new person.

Been there. I got my teenage daughters and best friend to vet my
husband before I agreed to go out with him. If they had said no, I would have been gutted, but would have gone along with their judgement. But In my teens two bad things each happened with a day - no chance to get someone to vet them.

Overall, I'm feeling positive. I have a direction to move in, and I'm seeing a lot of connections. Not sure what to do with them, but maybe that will come.

 

[ms spock]

[DLMURL]https://www.myptsd.com/c/albums/the-mindful-way-through-depression-full-youtube.802/[/DLMURL]
It has over an hour of different practices to do at the end. It also has suggestions before that on how to possibly schedule those practices.

 

[shimmerz]

I could have written this post a couple of years back. OMG I was so open to these types of people. Why? Because i had very black and white thinking when it came to people. All good or all bad. No in between. A person was either 'in' or 'out' in my way of thinking. So not the real world.

So I would dissect more. It was a cognitive process. I have a very good friend who is really good at listening but is totally passive aggressive when something is bothering him. I can now acknowledge both sides. I keep away when he is being PA and I hang out when he is neutral or supportive. I can like him anyways.

As far as meeting new people? I have an attachment disorder. I trust way too quickly. Bond first, ask questions later. All bad, because once I have bonded, well, there are complications in this head of mine in even acknowledging someone is an a-hole. A recipe for disaster because there are a ton of a-holes out there.

I think certain things did pass under the radar for me. Men were always a problem for me. Unwanted attention. Got me into a pile of trouble throughout the years (decades, if truth be told). So, here is the thing. Did this guy know you were married? If he did, he had no right to put out the impression that he liked you. You may not have known he liked you (I know this concept), but other people were telling you. So, if he liked you inappropriately, what would you have said to him to stop him from treating you like he liked you? That is a HUGE boundary, you being married and him flirting. I know I always got caught up in not being able to tell someone off, especially for that, because I couldn't figure out why someone would give me all the attention anyway. Then I figured it out. Narcissists and psychopaths all over this planet. They want what they want and if you are able to give it to them they could give a damn if they leave you in a heaping mess. That sobered me up.

I just ditched a new 'friend'. She showed signs of being a complete whack job, leaving debris all around her. I am proud of myself. I flushed her out, had her make her own noose and allowed her to hang herself in it. I didn't have to say a word, which solved the problem of my telling her off. I changed my normal 'let's talk about it' strategy (which just lets them know how to manipulate you), and just didn't give her what she wanted. Attention. Give these people attention and then yank it away and you will clearly see their colours. They turn into mean m*F*ers. It was actually kind fun watching her melt down. Hard not to giggle.