Calling Troll On New Posters

[Sandstone]

I just want to re-iterate that I am not questioning moderation decisions. I'm asking how and if we as members can respond more effectively to the volatile or odd newbies. I'm asking from the standpoint of recognising that it could so easily have been me.

Some of the comments that have come up have been really interesting, and I will want to ask some questions, but for now -
I've had a complicated afternoon, and won't be back on this thread for at least 14 hours, I'm in urgent need of rest and slow breathing.

 

[Friday]

I just want to re-iterate that I am not questioning moderation decisions. I'm asking how and if we as members can respond more effectively to the volatile or odd newbies. I'm asking from the standpoint of recognising that it could so easily have been me.

What I'm hearing here, and correct me if I'm wrong... Is that you're looking for some kind of consensus on what people should say, & how they say it?

If so... That makes me a little nervous, honestly. Not only are we not therapists, and not only are there already pretty clear rules in place to that effect... But people are different. Not only our own experiences, but the people coming to this site. What reaches one person will be completely unhelpful to the next. I think in general as a collective, we do a pretty good job of representing a wide range of personalities / voices / backgrounds / styles / etc. Personally, I like that. It's extremely rare that everyone on a thread will be saying the same thing in the same way. Instead one has a whole collective of experience to learn from. Even when durn near everyone is essentially saying the same thing, the way things are said vary widely. One person is joking, another serious, another direct to the point, another sharing their own experience, another delving into details. Whole range of opinions and attitudes and approaches.

 

[anthony]

I just want to re-iterate that I am not questioning moderation decisions.

I know...

A member raising something with members, considering I watch members call many a new member a troll... when I just don't see such behaviour myself, is somewhat interesting and I personally like this discussion. To me it reminds me of the issues some members have internally to go accusing others of trolling, when they themselves often have little experience in what to look for, or really how to identify a possible troll based on their posting history.

Some do, most do not, and quite often exactly what is outlined here, in that a new member is just finding their feet, maybe need to get beyond the aggressive barrier installed when coming to this very place for help and support, is all that is often presented and in need of getting beyond. Such members are typically reasonable, even go away for a short period, then return when calmer.

We separated the combat vets for this very reason, as many a combat vet came here and caused chaos with civilian abuse. Combat vets are often angry and volatile as a majority, due to training + PTSD, not just PTSD and not just training. That is not to lump all in the basket... I am a combat vet and had major anger issues long ago... though got beyond that. There are some who have little to no real anger problems except for when normal frustration.

From a staff view... actioning or watching is a fine line at times, falling one way or the other. Staff as a rule typically watch, we discuss a lot of stuff, then action... sometimes we just action, as at times it is best to action first for the sake of the overall community, then talk later if the person wants to discuss, instead of insult or such, via email.

Lots of people get banned, then those bans are lifted at some point due to people changing. We've lifted certain peoples bans, to just have the same thing occur repeatedly with each attempt, now no longer lifting those specific bans for the sake of the community.

I find this very interesting... and a little funny to be honest. But these type of discussions can often give myself, and staff, insight into other factors that we may initiate in our own processes. This community evolves... it's that simple.

 

[ihateusernames]

Good post @stenni. I've been thinking about the same thing. I haven't been here very long, but I've been on the internet for quite some time and I could easily tell right away that something was different here. Maybe the things you're talking about come from an intense desire to protect the integrity of the site and/or to protect other members from what we read as abusive behavior. I mean, the last thing I want to happen to anybody here is for them to be attacked, even if it is just in an internet forum. Essentially, this:

But if they can't respect the boundaries than they are going to be destructive to already existing members who are working to establish space and respect. We can all see they are hurting. But that doesn't excuse the way they treat people. Some abusers are hurting but we all know how destructive their behaviour can be to victims.

The same issues have been weighing on my mind recently because I reported a post. I'm positive I'm not the only one who did, so my action probably had little impact. But that doesn't stop me from ruminating over it and feeling guilty. I've noticed a handful of posters over the past couple of months that I would deem "trolls." However, I'm well aware that my BS detector is over-reactive and I don't like the idea that I might be thinking this about a genuine, hurting person. Something... off about the poster's profile tipped me toward the "report this" side. I don't know if I was right to do this, I don't know what the outcome was, I don't know whether a better strategy should be utilized. Just ignore it seems like it would work best, but then it also seems potentially dangerous.

I am totally rambling here, but I get what you're saying and it's good to read the discussion about it.

 

[Lucycat]

Something... off about the poster's profile tipped me toward the "report this" side. I don't know if I was right to do this, I don't know what the outcome was,

You are quite right - in my opinion. If in doubt 'report'. It is the staff's job to decide whether or not action is needed. I have reported many posts for a variety of reasons. Sometimes I will tell the poster I have reported - and why. Other times I am less sure so report and let the staff decide whether to tell the poster. Yet other times I suggest to a poster to report their own post so they can 'own' the changes required.

Don't ever be afraid to report. If it is not necessary then no harm is done - if it was necessary then you may have alerted staff to a problem early on.

 

[Kintsugi]

let the staff decide whether to tell the poster.

I just want to be abundantly clear--and I am not saying Lucycat implies otherwise here--that moderators don't go around actioning while saying "So and so reported you were breaking rules." Just, you know, to be super clear to those who might have a touch of paranoia (and this was me, too, before I was able to see what happened behind-the-scenes with staff), moderators moderate content flagged by others the same way they moderate things they happen upon themselves.

Reporting is great because mods simply aren't there to see everything, obviously, and it helps bring attention to potential issues, even just basic breaches of the rules like quoting whole posts, or letting mods know there is identical content floating around. It's more of a tap on the shoulder than a taking up of arms, you know?

Sliding on back to the original topic...

Something I've realized since reading this thread is that I was way more brash and overprotective as a member before becoming a mod. Part of that is conscious reigning in since being given greater responsibility. Part of it, though, is faith in the system increasing after I saw how things were handled. I think it really says something (wonderful) that I relaxed more after seeing how the moderation system really works upon becoming part of it.

As a member (exclusively), I was often consumed with the compulsion to "protect" the community. As a member who mods, I'm a little more laid back in my approach to new members who I find somehow questionable. I think it's easy and natural to be concerned both/either ways in this issue. For me, I was constantly worried about mostly imaginary threats to the community, and I was quicker to judge. I felt more urgently about perceived threats, especially when I was newer. I'd say my first 1-2 years on the forum were my most uptight in terms of suspicion toward "newcomers" :hilarious:.

As far as the differences between this forum and others, this was the first forum I participated in as an adult, and I am typically shocked when I go elsewhere (for a range of topics, not mental health). The fact that the PTSD forum I'm a part of seems stronger, healthier, and better managed than the forums for topics outside of mental health floored me. Furthermore, I find moderator visibility on other forums is often limited or near non-existent. It's definitely different in my experience.

 

[ms spock]

The thing is people sometimes join to be trolls. It is the internet.

I was on a forum for ten years and it was a brilliant forum. It was science based about nature, technology etc and some of the best minds around the globe dropped by that forum. And then the management changed and the trolls took over and then it was lost.

Looking back on that I would have managed things differently and I still regret that loss. People still ring me or email saying that they miss that forum. People have dispersed to multiple forums throughout the internet. I still am in contact with many of those people and I belong to some of those forums, but it will never be the same again. It is a terrible shame because people contributed to everything from complex technological information for aid efforts around the world to contributing money and expertise for endangered species in Australia. It was truly amazing. To protect this you have got to have courage and you have got to have heart to cut the trolls off at the knees otherwise the community is destroyed. This place is amazing - if you have been a moderator and a citizen of the Internet elsewhere you do get that. I really get it. When you have something as good as well is here on MYPTSD you have to really be diligent about protecting it.

I sometimes talk with new members, sometimes I see someone else has said what needs to be said - and that warnings have been given. Other times I will talk longer with a new member because I see a spark there that perhaps can be flamed the right way. As some else said we are not therapists, but we can model best practice, sometimes a few words in chat can direct someone to feel at ease and copy what other members are doing, until they settle in. Saying to people the mods here are great they will send you warnings if you break the rules, so be grateful for that, not reactive, as that takes precious time and energy. Some people get it, some don't.

It is important as members, especially as members who have been here for a long time to review how you contribute and perhaps just do a little bit each week to model best practice and to welcome new members, perhaps just wish a few members a Happy Birthday.

Occasionally someone will say I have been on this forum for X time now, and I was really reactive and I am sorry about how I behaved. Mostly I don't remember it because if someone is new I don't have the same expectations. But people do get there, and I think it gives people a sense of safety to be cut off - I imagined being banned wouldn't be a whole lot of fun, but you would come out of that knowing containment and that "Hey this behaviour isn't okay on myptsd". So I imagine that you would either try to change your behaviour or work out ways to be here differently. It is hard to know how people go with this.

I have a community of scholars approach to the internet and I know that for some people it might be annoying I do thresh things out and I like to debate, I try to be better around that, but you never know, without seeing people's body language, if you are getting it right.

I think having a discussion about how we as members react to new members is useful though. I think the small ways in which we interact we model to the new people how it is done. It is really sweet to see someone very new welcoming people in the chat room - so I see people doing a lot of good stuff.

I think @anthony, @Nicolette and all the moderators do a great job. I don't think people can understand how good a job they do and the breath of the vision that encompasses this forum, unless they have been moderators themselves or seen a tremendously good website and community fall apart under the weight of trolls. Some good and great stuff gets lost.

It is always good for us as members to review where we sit with things and how our contributions add or subtract to our forum. I think @stenni pulls apart some good issues here.

Ask not what your moderators can do for you, but what can you do for your moderators! ;)

 

[greenleaf]

Ask not what your moderators can do for you, but what can you do for your moderators! ;)

Chocolate! Chocolate!

Trolls are supposed to turn to stone when exposed to sunlight... Let's make a rule that trolls here get turned into chocolate, and the moderators can eat them.

 

[DarkSideOfTheSoul]

Eep!...as a noob there's points in this thread that freaked me right out. (Not comfy with the quote thingy yet, or I'd use it to illustrate).
I get why this site has the safe guards it does, and most I agree with.
What I didn't know, was that I'd be regarded as a potential troll until I revealed the reason I came here aka Criteria A.
For me, I have serious doubts as to if and when I'd reveal my deepest and darkest here. And it's not for lack of seeking & wanting real time help for it. I have shyness, I wonder how my past will be received, I have trust issues, & there's times when I myself don't wanna go there.
I may be new to this site, but definitely not new to this disorder. Yet, you'll have to take my word for it...or not. I think this is a great community...even better once I fit in. Yet, I do have to wonder now, when that'll be.
I also have infrequent bouts when I'm so angry, I push my friends away. There are times I feel out of control. I haven't read or made any comments the past few days because I wasn't sure if even my typed words would land in an acceptable way. I'm not the sort who takes rejection well, so avoidance is my go-to. Mostly, I see myself as a very caring person though.
I guess what I'm saying is, when I see long-time members state that they were accused of trolling, it makes me feel very anxious indeed.
Last thing I'd ever want to do is piss anyone off...or even get a warning. I'm so fragile right now, that would crush me.
I suppose I'll be walking on eggshells, showing my support to others that I can identify with and keep my story to myself until I feel it safe otherwise. Not to knock anyone. I'm glad I learned early on, what's expected outside of the rules. And I get it. How's anyone here to know if I'm the real deal unless I share what brought me here ?
Hopes this makes sense....pretty jumbled lately.

 

[ihateusernames]

What you've written makes perfect sense, but I don't think you have anything to worry about. I think I've been here for 2 months. Maybe not even that long. I haven't had any negative experiences or been called a troll- at least not to my "face." :)

What I didn't know, was that I'd be regarded as a potential troll until I revealed the reason I came here aka Criteria A.

You do not have to reveal anything. Y'know what? I don't have a ptsd diagnosis, really have no idea whether I should or not, I have never sought one, I have never spoken to a psychiatrist in a clinical setting and don't have upcoming plans to, and I quit my therapist and have been making excuse after excuse to myself to not go back. (ugh, I'll stop this soon) Hell, I don't belong here. But everybody has been totally welcoming anyway. I have several of the "qualifications" you're talking about, but I don't have a diary here, I don't post about my experiences except as they relate to posts by others. Nobody has tried to force me to tell my story or prove myself as a member.

I haven't read or made any comments the past few days because I wasn't sure if even my typed words would land in an acceptable way.

I have this problem a lot, everywhere, I can read and reread what I write and still have no idea how it's going to come across to others. lol

showing my support to others that I can identify with and keep my story to myself until I feel it safe otherwise.

That is fine. I personally hope that you will not share anything until you feel safe here. That probably sounds not at all like I intend for it to... my point is, take care of yourself, don't be worried about doing what you feel is expected of you. It seems to me, anyway, that all that's really expected here is civility. And more or less proper sentence structure.

 

[Kintsugi]

@DarkSideOfTheSoul I think this thread contains members musing about their observances--sometimes over the course of years--on this website.

Someone suspected of being a troll has, in my experience, always been a rare experience here.

I'm glad you shared your perspective, though. I think maybe I'm so used to being a member here, I forget how frightening it can be to be new.

These catch my eye.

You wrote:

What I didn't know, was that I'd be regarded as a potential troll until I revealed the reason I came here aka Criteria A.

I found:

First, the whole Criterion A thing. In general, members here are keen to ensure that a new poster claiming PTSD actually has the condition, and that has to be right, because otherwise we would be flooded with endless vaguely unhappy people. I wonder if sometimes, though, people just can't manage to tell us what it's really about. In my own case, the actual onset of PTSD came from a non-Criterion A event, and if I hadn't seen the links to my past I could have rolled up here with all the symptoms but no Criterion A. There are people who can't bring themselves to mention the true issues until they have built some trust, and people who don't currently recall their trauma.

Most of the time, the response is compassionate and sympathetic. Once in awhile "Criterion A trauma" gets to be an issue right off. Different threads that look similar to me can go in wildly different directions. I'm curious about why. I suspect it depends a lot on who engages and what kind of day they're having.

For the most part, I'm not too worried about whether or not anyone "qualifies". No one ever asked ME to prove I had PTSD or have experienced "Criterion A" trauma. I think it's none of anyone else's business and I feel like what someone else has experienced is none of mine. If they have a hang nail rather than the broken leg they think they have, they'll probably figure it out if they hang around long enough. Meanwhile, they might learn somethings and that's got to be good.

I think the Criterion A is important. If someone joins and doesn't state their trauma most people don't push. I didn't get pushed when I joined. The issue arises when people join and either ask if they have PTSD (which no-one here can answer) or say they have it from a non-criterion trauma. Then its respectfully pointed that it doesn't qualify for the diagnosis by itself. It doesn't minimise what they are feeling. It's a point of scientific fact. Non-criteria A trauma or stressors can be the catalyst that puts the stress cup off the edge for previous trauma. Delayed onset PTSD is also a thing. But PTSD is over diagnosed as it is. Just because someone has survived a criteria A trauma doesn't mean they will get PTSD. They could be just fine or suffer from a different mental health issue. Its also entirely possible to survive a criteria A stressor and have strong emotional issues for a bit (totally understandable post Trauma) and then recover. Either way we do always gently say go see someone qualified for this.

One of the things that I love around here is that PTSD isn't required to be here or participate. In addition to all of us trying to figure this thing out there are also supporters, students/researchers, journalists, etc.... Who are all made welcome as long as they identify themselves properly.

Are there people who who identify as PTSD who don't have it? I'm sure. That's not really my lookout. I'm not the gate keeper (or key master ;) ), this isn't my forum, and quite frankly I really don't care.

Where I do care, and why I bring up the CriterionA stuff (if no one else has) is when people are saying "I have PTSD from _________." And the blank is not Criterion A trauma.

- It's factually incorrect.

- Practical Application & Best Practice changes depending on what disorder or condition you're dealing with.

What's best for us, people who are dealing with PTSD? Doesn't translate to every other disorder, either. Telling someone with a delusional disorder that what happened was very real? Not smart. Nor helpful. Straight up harmful.

- Lastly? It pisses me off.

...When a person is insistent that being embarrassed by a teacher (or cheated on by a partner, or a bad trip, or the ever so classic stubbing their toe!) is "like" being raped? No. Being raped is like being raped. Or is "like" being tortured, or "like" being held at gunpoint, or any other real CritA trauma? No. Torture is torture, being held at gunpoint is being held at gunpoint, ad naseam....& It pisses me the hell off.

Bolded brackets added by me for clarity

I do think some people forget that [you don't need to have PTSD to participate]. Before the MySexAbuse forum merged with this one the sexual abuse section was not even about PTSD and we still have many users here from those days. They have a history of sexual trauma for sure but don't want or need to get a diagnosis of PTSD. They need/get therapy for their specific trauma.

I am wondering where you saw something that made you feel you "would be regarded as a potential troll" until you disclosed your trauma? I've read a lot of threads, a lot of introduction threads included. I read your introduction. I don't usually see people even ask if there is Criterion A trauma in their history.

Where I do see this in the forums, it is the direct result of someone describing that they think they have PTSD because of a trauma that is clearly not Criterion A, which @FridayJones illustrated (very :giggle:) well. The way most members respond to most posts about being unsure of diagnosis is to encourage seeking an appropriate diagnosis from a professional.

I'm glad I learned early on, what's expected outside of the rules. And I get it. How's anyone here to know if I'm the real deal unless I share what brought me here ?
Hopes this makes sense....pretty jumbled lately.

What did you learn that is expected outside of the rules from this thread? I don't see any secret rules hiding around here... :shifty: :D

I realize that you're new, and you're in a vulnerable place, but I think your perception of this thread as someone who is admittedly a "noob" and "fragile" is a bit different from the content in the thread. I'm wondering if your state of mind is influencing your interpretation of the content here rather than taking things at face value.

I think this thread is an open discussion for community members about whether or not there are better ways to engage with new members in light of issues that sometimes arise in new member threads. I think it is also a discussion about staff action in the sense of "musing," as @stenni said, about past decisions and how these are similar and different from seemingly similar threads that don't go south. The fact that this thread is being comfortably and candidly discussed speaks, I think, to the community we've built and continue to build moment-by-moment here. This is not a community I would consider clandestine in any way.

I would say the majority of bans here are time-outs. Sometimes members need a couple days or a week to take a breather before coming back. This has always seemed more compassionate to me than allowing people to escalate to well beyond that point of just needing a little air. If I had always been allowed to escalate, I may not still be participating here. I may have had more negative experiences than little "whoopsie" moments here and there. Y'know?

 

[Friday]

What I didn't know, was that I'd be regarded as a potential troll until I revealed the reason I came here aka Criteria A.

I've never seen anyone ask for that, here. It could happen, I suppose, but it's not common.

People often ask if someone has Criterion A trauma, but not what that trauma is, much less details.