What About Just Being There?

[The Albatross]

My participation here on the thread was because I zeroed in on some of the other comments about guilt and shame. I think that personalities differ... as obviously my coping style differs from others here.

Sun Seeker asked somewhere above "What if we could process trauma without any shame?" In a wobbly and weird way I tried to say... we can.

As for there rest of the material, I have no comments because I am an "orange". ;) But I am glad apples have their coping styles and supports too. :tup:

 

[shimmerz]

Frankly it scares him.

Yes, and this is a problem. I appreciate the path you have taken and am very glad that it has worked for you Albatross. It is a very different scenario when you can choose to 'hold off' and not just end up crumpled up somewhere. At one time even imagining having that control seemed like light years away.

 

[sun seeker]

I choose not to affect other people or inflict on them my own reactivity if at all possible.

This is a statement that could start a thread of its own, and it would be a very interesting one. A few questions come up when I consider this. One: what kind of reactivity? If we are reacting in anger and taking that out on others, I can see more of an incentive to work on not showing it around others. People have wildly differing ways of being reactive depending on our default when threatened (fight, flight, freeze or fawn), which in turn is a combination of the age at which we were traumatized and some other factors. Two: what is the difference between compassionate presence (caring but separate) and empathy (feeling another's pain as one's own)? Three: what kinds of people do we have in our lives, and how much of this is by choice? Do we tend to attract people who can't handle our intensity because we don't believe we deserve that? Where do our core beliefs come from? Four: What is our end goal in healing? Do we want to be "normal", if that is even a possibility? Or do we want to create something new? And probably several more things I can't articulate at the moment.

I should be clear that I don't try to speak for anyone else here, or to generalize. In my own life, I lived with decades of entrenched shame because of growing up with and then attracting into my life people who reflected that I was bad or wrong to be the way I was, that I was a burden to be with, that the very core of my being was flawed. I tried my utmost not to inflict my reactions on others, and ended up more and more isolated and ashamed of what I am gradually coming to see are actually normal human needs. It was an uphill battle to say the least, and I spent much of my time alone trying not to inflict myself on others, because I could only manage "normal" for short periods at a time. For me, changing this perception is a core aspect of healing. It may not be the same for everyone.

 

[Anarchy]

You guys have got me thinking

About last September, I was comparing notes with one of the younger members ( might have been lollie) and we both found it much more painful if someone tried to hug us, or even be near, during a flashback or when triggered.

I'm just wondering now if that is a shame reaction?

I really try to isolate when I'm triggered, any intrusion when I can't isolate, is painful, whether it is un called for attention, "im just trying to help, its for your own good" o r scornful invalidation: "he's just attention seeking" or a triggered (now) ex "we need to talk, don't try to run away!"

Neither childhood nor adult life have been safe from emotional and physical attacks, or from rescuers.

The sun is shining, I'm off to isolate for a few hours...

 

[sun seeker]

I really try to isolate when I'm triggered, any intrusion when I can't isolate, is painful, whether it is un called for attention, "im just trying to help, its for your own good" o r scornful invalidation: "he's just attention seeking" or a triggered (now) ex "we need to talk, don't try to run away!"

See, all of these reactions sound invalidating to me, and it doesn't surprise me that you run as fast as you can in the opposite direction. I wonder if there is any kind of response from another person you can imagine that would help you feel validated and supported while in a flashback?

I don't know how much of this has to do with how we have been treated in the past, what developmental windows were missed during the original trauma, how much is personal preference, or any number of other things. It's interesting. I have a sister who also has trauma issues (not sure if she has PTSD, but we did grow up in the same family and to my observation her issues are pretty obvious) who feels smothered by having anyone around when she is going through an emotional reaction. She tries to give others what she needs herself by keeping away until they are back to "normal". This is the exact opposite of what I need. Same family, very different needs. I don't know all the ingredients that go into making a person one way or the other.

I don't want to intrude on your isolation. ;) Hope you're having a good day... or evening now, over in the U.K.:)

 

[illusionist]

I'm going to be totally honest here....gulp.....during a flashback I feel it's my shame, mine alone...shame in being vulnerable, rather than shame of the event...Hope I make sense. If anyone shows, or gives ' back up'....it makes me feel even more vulnerable and somehow weakens my exterior....can't have that, I'm Brittish......is it cultural?....is it something that's engrained in us?...is it too hard to crack as its worked for us for so long?.... would I be in a worse mess if I changed tactic?

 

[anonymous]

This is very new for me as well, due to long experience of being hurt worse in one way or another if I showed any vulnerability, so I understand what you are saying. I will say this: I have spent decades working on healing, but in a more left-brained way until fairly recently. All the years of work gave me a good intellectual understanding of why my life was so screwed up, but little actual healing.

Yes..

So when we accept each other without judgement, I don't think we are buying into anything, but fulfilling a real need, the need to know that we are acceptable just as we are. ..in survival mode. I just needed nonjudgemental company to help me calm down, and then I was able to overlay that feeling onto the fearful experiences of the past and work out the truth in my own mind.

Yes & yes I think.

my friend and I both had a really good day today (for most of the day, anyway!)

:tup: :hug:

I do not want to wear out or adversely affect people I care about.

I think most of us feel aware & afraid of damaging others.

It is a very different scenario when you can choose to 'hold off' and not just end up crumpled up somewhere. At one time even imagining having that control seemed like light years away.

I lost what I had versus the other way around.

This is a statement that could start a thread of its own, and it would be a very interesting one. A few questions come up when I consider this. One: what kind of reactivity? If we are reacting in anger and taking that out on others, I can see more of an incentive to work on not showing it around others. People have wildly differing ways of being reactive depending on our default when threatened (fight, flight, freeze or fawn), which in turn is a combination of the age at which we were traumatized and some other factors. Two: what is the difference between compassionate presence (caring but separate) and empathy (feeling another's pain as one's own)? Three: what kinds of people do we have in our lives, and how much of this is by choice? Do we tend to attract people who can't handle our intensity because we don't believe we deserve that? Where do our core beliefs come from? Four: What is our end goal in healing? Do we want to be "normal", if that is even a possibility? Or do we want to create something new? And probably several more things I can't articulate at the moment.

I think these all are relevant questions, & from a right-brained versus left-brained consideration too.

I lived with decades of entrenched shame because of growing up with and then attracting into my life people who reflected that I was bad or wrong to be the way I was, that I was a burden to be with, that the very core of my being was flawed. I tried my utmost not to inflict my reactions on others, and ended up more and more isolated and ashamed of what I am gradually coming to see are actually normal human needs. It was an uphill battle to say the least, and I spent much of my time alone trying not to inflict myself on others, because I could only manage "normal" for short periods at a time. For me, changing this perception is a core aspect of healing. It may not be the same for everyone.

100 % relate.

.. we both found it much more painful if someone tried to hug us, or even be near, during a flashback or when triggered...I'm just wondering now if that is a shame reaction?

I think so. My feelings when ashamed.

I feel it's my shame, mine alone...shame in being vulnerable, rather than shame of the event.. is it too hard to crack as its worked for us for so long?.... would I be in a worse mess if I changed tactic?

I have that feeling, whether of shame or self-rejection or both, but changing my response was not always in my control. More like the cracks grew.

 

[jaccat]

I isolate when I'm triggered but I'm more of a flight/fight response. With me it's about trust too, allowing someone to touch me or be near me when I'm vulnerable involves a level of trust I don't have, nor do I believe I am capable of. People who try to approach me get yelled at when I'm triggered.

But then if I had someone who refused to go anywhere and stayed with me I'd be helluva uncomfortable, but then what? What would happen after that? It's an interesting question.

Edited to add I am very much a left-brained person.

 

[anonymous]

Oop, booboo hit the wrong button that was from me, Junebug ^ .

 

[Tinyflame]

I am not sure if I have the words @sun seeker ,& no one is lying on the floor with me literally or figuratively, nor do I have that in my life. But I feel there is great truth in the fact that I think most of us are really trying to do the best we can, & we do not lack the knowledge of what we 'should' be like or want to be like. But if we can't do better, or another way in a given moment, & it's not acceptable I think we feel worse. I think that does add shame (& other things).

 

[sun seeker]

I have many thoughts on the above comments. Am waiting for a chance to delve into them in depth but at the moment need to catch up on some practical work. Harvest time is calling! I'll be back, not necessarily with insight but maybe some more questions.

 

[illusionist]

Jaacat.....that's exactly how I am...I block out others, can't stand anyone close.

The more I think on it, the more I believe it's because I feel shame on showing vulnerability.....that's pretty bad considering the time I've been in this relationship.....I know I can trust him....maybe I fear relying on him for emotional support? I do fear self pity, something I know I'm capable of falling into...but it's not self pity when you allow someone to share your space?...is it???