Question: If You've Been Told You Have Complex Trauma Does That Mean Bpd?

[Queen Boudica]

OK had really good session with him today. Cleared up a few things. In a much better place now.

He thinks BPD is a really bad label and does not agree with it as the name borderline personality is really stigmatising.

He is saying complex trauma is a spectrum, and that childhood trauma leads to complex trauma (PTSD +), but some develop the what is labelled as BPD, but it is caused by complex trauma. (although Not that all BPD is due to complex trauma)

So I think because my sister was diagnosed with BPD, he was referring to it as complex trauma. Which made me really confused. Because he was saying BPD is complex trauma.
Thing is my sister was not exhibiting those BPD symptoms originally, I think she was complex trauma, but, after being misdiagnosed and put in hospital and then spending years with my abusive mother after that, she got to BPD spectrum of complex trauma. Spending years in that mad house with my mother, would drive anyone completely insane. My mother had No boundaries. I never understood, how she could do the things she did, but I finally got it last week when my psychologist said she just had no boundaries. It was all about her and she would do anything to control and enforce her sick views.

He doesn't think I am BPD, but PTSD due to childhood trauma.

Interesting because at the end we were talking about complex trauma and then PTSD in veterans and he was talking about how the way wars are fought now are so different to World War II. Gorilla tactics, there is no front line. So trauma is constant. Just made me think, it is not PTSD from one single event in that situation, it is complex.

But then, childhood trauma occurs when brains are developing, and from what I have been studying, severe abuse in childhood damages the brain. It affects you when you are supposed to be forming your sense of self. It f*cks up your fight or flight system, so you are in constant alert state and all areas of health are impacted by that.

 

[Anarchy]

Glad he clarified it for you.

Marsha Linehan's model of BPD is "bio social" , it comes the interactions of an already sensitive (or sensitized) individual, with a chronicly "invalidating environment". Which sounds like what happened to your poor sister.

I'm not sure about what happens in Oz, but in the late sixties or early seventies, there was project comparing diagnosis of schizophrenia between the US and Britain, then later on a wider international scale. It turned out the with the same sample of individuals, the American psychiatrists were diagnosing five times as many with "schizophrenia", as the British psychiatrists. On the wider international comparison, the Soviets also had a very much broader category of "schizophrenia", including "sluggish schizophrenia" the main symptom of which was questioning of authority figures (the current "Oppositional Defiant Disorder, is very much a present day American analogue of that Soviet tool for dealing with those of us who question authoritah).

Bessel van der Kolk (I think Judith Herman was one of the other researchers on this project) did an analysis of people with BPD diagnoses, and about 78% of them reported a trauma which would qualify as "critereon A" for a DSM diagnosis of PTSD. there are about 15 separate studies which have independantly repeated that finding. So to that extent, some of what many people diagnosed with BPD experience, is PTSD.

but, as your T has now clarified. ptsd certainly does not imply BPD.

Your T has a very good point about distrusting diagnoses. Richard Bentall, in "madness explained" cites studies carried out during the compilation one of the previous editions of the DSM, where even the highly trained psychiatrists in the controlled setting of trials, failed to achieve a kappa value of the required minimum of 0.7, for agreement between their diagnoses. the kappa value is a statistical tool which makes allowance for chance agreement, for example if you and I each diagnosed the same sample of people on the basis of each tossing a coin, half of our diagnoses would coincide just by simple probability, the kappa test eliminates those chance agreements. The diagnostic process failed to meet even its own baseline reliability.

 

[void]

He is still saying complex trauma is classified as BPD in the DSM even though he doesn't agree with that la...

@Lizio

Then he is WRONG.
Look......complex trauma is NOT classified as BPD....and I don't care if he says or thinks it is.
Therapist and Doctors can be wrong, and he is wrong, objective, provably WRONG.
He is disagreeing with his own profession and is causing great confusion in his patient....that is UNACCEPTABLE.

I don't know you but I do know that you deserve a T. that is being professional, telling you the facts, and is creating a milieu of positivity, clarity, improving self-understanding/awareness and growth.

Is he?

I see only confusion(which is understandable).

 

[Chava]

Gorilla tactics, there is no front line. So trauma is constant. Just made me think, it is not PTSD from one single event in that situation, it is complex.

Right, that is complex trauma too. Longterm and/or multiple traumas. Same with adults in captive situations, etc.

But then, childhood trauma occurs when brains are developing, and from what I have been studying, severe abuse in childhood damages the brain.

And this is complex trauma too, but because of the developmental aspect, symptoms can be broader and deeper (not necessarily meaning worse, just more intractable). So kids with early and chronic neglect and abuse can have a load of too many separate disorders (like PTSD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, ADHD, anxiety, learning disabilities, even sometimes misdiagnosed as Autism spectrum based on symptoms). When early trauma is involved (particularly first couple years of life), Laurence Heller calls this all Developmental Trauma....trauma happening in the most formative years of human development. All relationships get f*cked up....the brain and nervous system are developing, as well as very basic abilities to attach, trust, feel safe, and be in relationships. It would be great if some diagnosis along these lines could be set up to avoid giving traumatized kids a laundry list of diagnosis and often placing them into some kind of special ed.

Earlier trauma also leads more often to freeze responses and dissociation because fighting or fleeing are not options. So later traumas also and responded to as freeze and the load of dissociation just thickens.

Okay, I'm going off on a tangent. It's a little confusing because even the diagnosis of PTSD is relatively new. The experts are trying to sort out the variations and what they mean in terms of symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment. I relate quite well to developmental trauma issues, which seems weird...even in my 40s...it hangs on.

Glad you had a good appointment! Yay!

 

[Friday]

Neither of these 2 items are particularly pertinent to the discussion at hand... Both are just misinformation.

Spoiler: PSA - US Soldiers have been using Guerrilla Warfare since the 1770's - Revolutionary War

he was talking about how the way wars are fought now are so different to World War II. Gorilla tactics, there is no front line. So trauma is constant.

Public Service Announcement - American Soldiers have been using Guerrilla Warfare since the Revolutionary War in the 1770's, and colonials even earlier. Guerrilla tactics were used extensively in WWII, both in the Pacific & in Africa / Europe, even if trench warfare was was a significant component in Europe. The most significant difference between WWII & Modern Warfare is arguably the tour-based-system, instead of all-in-until-it's-over. However, "the front lines" exist in all wars. That's where the fighting is. Even if that hasn't really been an accurate description since the Napoleonic Wars, and the term "in theater" has been used since at least World War I (The pacific theater, etc.).

Trauma was far more constant for those predating the tour based system, than for those of us who cycled through different combat rotations, or on different combat tours.

***

Spoiler: Public Service Announcement - ADHD is not caused by childhood trauma or neglect.

So kids with early and chronic neglect and abuse can have a load of too many separate disorders (like PTSD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, ADHD, anxiety, learning disabilities, even sometimes misdiagnosed as Autism spectrum based on symptoms).

Public Service Announcement - ADHD is not caused by childhood trauma or neglect. While there are many possible disorders & conditions resulting from childhood trauma or neglect (ranging from PTSD to Psychopathy) ADHD is a neurobiological disorder with an incredibly strong hereditary component, but has been shown through near countless studies to have absolutely no correlation to parenting, diet, accident, illness, injury, or any other outside influence. AKA It is an innate disorder that a person is born with, not one that is acquired. For anyone interested in verifying the above statements: CHADD, National Resource Center for ADHD, NIMH, CDC, & the DSM5.

((The reason for this PSA is the exact same as if you found PTSD was being referenced as a possible result of not eating your veggies, or stepping a Lego, on a parenting forum.))

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

 

[Chava]

I didn't mean to say ADHD is caused by trauma (it's not)...but words aren't my friends today. Sometimes there are misdiagnosis, or a huge list of diagnosis. I see this with kids I've taught who've moved around foster care placements. Laundry list of diagnosis, all kinds of special ed stickers on their files. Probably most of the diagnosis are accurate. But it gets treated as learning problems, not as "trauma", though some educators understand the underlying regulation issues very well. I just never ever see a traumatic stress disorder linked to these kids....just a whole load of other things.

 

[anthony]

Interesting because at the end we were talking about complex trauma and then PTSD in veterans and he was talking about how the way wars are fought now are so different to World War II. Gorilla tactics, there is no front line. So trauma is constant. Just made me think, it is not PTSD from one single event in that situation, it is complex.

I think you're confusing the situational aspect with the trauma aspect, in your above statement.

Situationally, a threat exists all the time. That existed in all past wars, present, and will in future war. A frontline is irrelevant when talking trauma. If you view trauma as more the conflict situations themselves, then it doesn't matter which war you're in, each enemy engagement is an event. Events themselves compound, in combination with the original and always existent, constant threat being in any war environment. That threat also changes depending on whether a uniform is worn or not. A uniform denotes you, where civilian clothing does not. The risk inherently increases with a uniform.

Trauma can not be confused with events. Yes, military trauma can be complex in its outcome, but military trauma is not complex, nor is childhood. It is specific situations that make it complex trauma, and not simply defining a type of trauma as such.

 

[Queen Boudica]

Actually in childhood trauma if you have an insane mother you feel like you are in danger all the time. You never know when she is going to go ballistic. So it is not individual disparate events. It is continuous

 

[Queen Boudica]

And ADHD, is a combination of genetics and environment. Alcohols consumption and smoking when pregnant make it 8x as likely that the genes that predispose for ADHD are switched on. I wouldn't be surprised cortisol in pregnancy is one of the culprits as well. I have 3 AHDH kids. I had an awful lot of stress when I was pregnant. It affects the dopamine receptor mechanism in the brain. Makes them 'in the moment' act on impulses, unable to think things through. It is a developmental delay, it can improve with age. Depending on environment they are raised in I guess. One where the parents do not exhibit executive function skills themselves, then means the kids have no modelling, so I guess would be far less likely for their symptoms to reduce in adulthood.

 

[Kailani]

I have heard that BPD has similar qualities under the dissociative scales for ptsd and did and that frequently people are misdiagnosed as BPD when it's ptsd. I have the dissociative subtype of ptsd with depersonalization but not derealization and other dissociative tendencies but not DID. Have never been diagnosed with BPD but misdiagnosed with bipolar which I heard is another frequent misdiagnosis . Also misdiagnosed with MPD now called DID. The only one that gave me a sense of relief was the correct diagnosis of ptsd severe because it made sense. The other ones freaked me out a bit. Hope that helps you!!!! You are not your diagnosis, the coffee you drink, the car you drive or the house you live in. You are you!!!! And that's great!

 

[Friday]

And ADHD, is a combination of genetics and environment. Alcohols consumption and smoking when pregnant make it 8x as likely that the genes that predispose for ADHD are switched on. I wouldn't be surprised cortisol in pregnancy is one of the culprits as well. I have 3 AHDH kids. I had an awful lot of stress when I was pregnant.

It affects the dopamine receptor mechanism in the brain. Makes them 'in the moment' act on impulses, unable to think things through. It is a developmental delay, it can improve with age. Depending on environment they are raised in I guess. One where the parents do not exhibit executive function skills themselves, then means the kids have no modelling, so I guess would be far less likely for their symptoms to reduce in adulthood.

About 50 % of that is wrong, about 25% 1 of several theories but not proven, & the other 25% debatable. I would suggest though, to not derail your thread that we head over to other symptoms & disorders if you want to discuss further :) Could be a looooong conversation.

 

[Queen Boudica]

um @FridayJones I have 3 kids with ADHD I am studying child development. And it is my thread and I don't think it is being derailed if I reply to another persons response. I actually think you are being derailing with your responses.
No I have no wish to discuss further with you