Connecting With T?

[DogwoodTree]

How can I make myself connect with my Ts?

Seriously, I'm so stinkin' frustrated. It's not their fault (I'm working with a team right now for equine therapy). I just can't...can't seem to get past my own walls...don't have a clue who I am, or how to show up. I've tried to learn their rules--they say there are no rules, but every relationship has rules...rules of engagement...for boundaries and ways to interact and so on...and I've truly tried to figure out what that looks like in therapy. I totally suck at it. I've told them how frustrated I am. I've tried and tried, to do different things, to take different approaches, to learn what they're trying to teach me. The problem isn't them. It's me. It's so totally me. I don't know who I am. I don't know how I feel. I can't process worth a crap when I'm around people because I'm so completely shut down.

I can't even put words to it anymore. I'm supposed to be journaling this stuff out, because that's the only form of processing that gets past some of my defenses. I don't have the words for it. No words are enough. It's like a fish trying to explain to a bird why the fish is flopping around on the ground and gasping and dying. The bird has no concept of breathing water...knows complete freedom in the air...but the fish is dying right in front of the bird for no comprehensible reason.

Why can't I just be a real person with people? Why can't I just show up for the relationship? But it doesn't work, no matter how hard I try, or how much courage I bring to the table, or how much hope and anticipation I've let myself have for the relationship. It's not there. I can't connect. I can't. I've tried. This is futile. Even just trying to have a simple conversation...it doesn't work. I'm not a real person. I'm not really there. It's always a mask. Maybe it's a carefully crafted mask specifically for that unique relationship...but it's still a mask.

The more I try to be real with people, the more I come across as an idiot. I'm so freakin tired. Seems like everything I try that should help, makes things worse, like being stuck in quicksand. How much longer can this go on? At what point do I become certifiably insane?

I so desperately, desperately want to be real with them. I want to trust them. I want to show up. But I can't get past my own f*kin defenses. I'm trapped inside my own bastion.

 

[Friday]

If I understand this correctly... You're people pleasing, but they're giving you a blank slate to work with, so you're like a cartoon chameleon with its finger in a socket; changing color from pink to green to plaid to polka dots ... Trying to "be" what you think they want you to be. Except they aren't giving you any tells to pattern off of?

This is one of the great things about horses. They don't want you to "be" anything. So you're just you. & them. & both of you together.

Some horse-people adopt the same kind of attitude-outlook.

But yeah... If you're trying to "be" something for them? It ain't gonna work. You could be 50 people in a row, and not be any closer to figuring out what they want from you. (Because they don't want anything from you). They're taking you as you are. All 50 of ya, plaid & polka dots & all.

Where the "connection" happens with these kinds of people? Is when you stop trying so hard. Stop trying to be what you think they want you to be, and start being 30 of you, then 20, then 10. It's not a connection you can force or manipulate of trick into existence.

Horse-people like this are patient. They wait. It's exactly like watching a young horse need to run off all the excess energy / and roll in the grass/ and get all silly/ and get all spooked -get calm- get spooked again -get calm again- / then and only then after he's shaken himself out? Then you ask something of him. <chuckling> But he'll balk. 99 times out of a hundred. It's a months long process of waiting him out & slowly earning trust. Ask too much too soon? You'll damage a young horse. His body, his heart, or his mind. So you wait. Until he's ready. It's all about him, not you. When he's ready, not what you want. So you don't put your wants on them. Ever.

You watch. You wait. And they will come into their own. Always do.

***
ETA... And this is mostly for myself... You just made me think about it :) I'll prolly yank it over to my diary, but wanted to thank you for getting me to this. It's really helpful for me.

As a teenager, I specialized in the neurotic horses. The glue-factory hard cases who were seriously nuts. Mostly retired racehorses (retired at like 2yo or 3yo mostly. Never gonna run, some they didn't have it in them, some were injured). High strung motherf*ckers. The ones who had been broken, were damaged, half feral. It cracks me up now, cause it's like, no wonder I get on so well with neurotic horses! I am one! I didn't have the kind of patience needed for young horses. That's a long term patience that can see months and years down the road. I could love on 'em, babies are *awesome*, but they needed a different sort of attention for training than my blockheads :) Big beautiful darlings, the lot of them. My guys needed a level of intensity + calm that is completely wrong for a young horse. Serious bossing. Strong hands. Very in-the-moment as long as the moment lasted (or be set back months!)... Even if that meant I was spending the night in the barn to see them through that. In the moment patience.

Sometimes I look at PTSD... The way it splits? With military folk, first responders, & etc. generally over on one side of the split (Fight!) and the people triumphing over childhoods & etc. (Flight!FF) over on the other side of the divide? Makes me think back to when I was a teenager & my horses (Fight!), and the babies coming into their own (Learning!) ... And how those two groups of horses needed "the same thing but different". The very similar but very different techniques for handling them & helping them forward. I've caught the edges of this before, but this is really the first time a few pieces have thunked down into place. Grazia Bella.

 

[scout86]

Are you a "real person" here? Because you seem like you are and you communicate pretty well here. And it's hard to imagine you coming off like an idiot!

I don't think you CAN "make yourself" connect with anyone. And sometimes it seems like the harder you try to force the issue the worse it gets.

I decided to deal with this basically by deciding it was my therapist's job to deal with it. Seriously. The very first session, I kind of told him I was going to be a problem because I wasn't good at talking about stuff but was VERY good at not talking about stuff. He listened, thanked my for "doing his job for him" and assured me he was capable of doing it himself. (He is!) There have been times when he's asked me something, like "what do you want to get out of this?" that I have NO idea how to answer. He'll wait, then say not to worry about it, lots of people have trouble answering that question. It's been a long process. We had a few misunderstanding. There have been lots of times when I felt like I was a TERRIBLE client. All the things you're saying about yourself. I'm sure he's going to get sick of dealing with me, that I'm wasting his time. But he gets that. He has told me that he wishes I didn't feel that way, and that's part of what we're working on.

My dad used to say, "If you want to double your rate of learning, you have to double your rate of making mistakes." My T says, "I wish you could avoid getting distracted by trying to figure out how to do things 'right'." Related ideas, really. You don't HAVE to do anything "right". It's their job to guide you. It's their job to connect with YOU.

Another thing my T says is that one of the goals is for me to be "more the person I really am, more of the time." He might be lying, but he seems ok with that person. After a lifetime of feeling like I have to be who other people want me or need me to be, that takes some getting used to..... They KNOW you have problems with this stuff. If you didn't, you wouldn't be there. They're ok with that. Horses, and other animals too, have always been "people" who seemed fine with "me" just the way I am. It's a big part of why I like them.

I can't help but think that anyone who is trying as hard as you are and who cares as much as you do, is going to get through this. It may not seem like it now, but that's often the way things seem in the middle. It's possible that you haven't found the right T. I don't think they are all totally interchangeable and different things will work for different people. You could even ask the team you're working with about this. Sometimes we don't see our own progress as well as other people can.

 

[Friday]

^^^^ Can I LIKE this maybe 40 million times? Read what @scout86 said. A lot.

 

[DogwoodTree]

If I understand this correctly... You're people pleasing, but they're giving you a blank slate to work with, so you're like a cartoon chameleon with its finger in a socket; changing color from pink to green to plaid to polka dots ... Trying to "be" what you think they want you to be. Except they aren't giving you any tells to pattern off of?

Have you been watching my sessions? Gee whiz...

They're taking you as you are.

What if who-I-am is a total recluse with no natural ability to reach out? What if my cry for help looks an awful lot like pushing people away? They can't read my mind. How do I communicate with them when it seems like we don't even speak the same language? I've been trying to find a common language, and it's not working.

Are you a "real person" here? Because you seem like you are and you communicate pretty well here. And it's hard to imagine you coming off like an idiot!

I don't talk nearly as well as I write. Part of that is because when I'm writing, I get away from everyone else first. I can't think clearly around other people.

He might be lying, but he seems ok with that person. After a lifetime of feeling like I have to be who other people want me or need me to be, that takes some getting used to..... They KNOW you have problems with this stuff. If you didn't, you wouldn't be there. They're ok with that. Horses, and other animals too, have always been "people" who seemed fine with "me" just the way I am.

The more I try to be authentic with people IRL, the more repulsive I become. Seriously. In the past year and a half or so, since I truly dug deep into this quest for authenticity, people have started talking at me like I'm an idiot. You know that tone of voice? And how people are withdrawn, and trying to simplify things, to make sure you can understand them? I don't blame them. I was a fool to let down the masks. What's underneath is too bizarre. People can't handle it. I see the pity in their eyes.

I try to think about what I really want to do for a session. They rarely have a "plan" these days...they're always waiting to see what I want to do. (If I knew what to do to fix this, I would've done it already, so I really don't know how it's supposed to help to keep leaving it up to me.) But if I did what I imagine...I'd curl up in a ball and shut everyone out...not because I don't want to connect...I actually do want to connect...but because shutting down on the outside is more representative of what I feel on the inside. But then, what's the point of going to therapy if I shut them out completely without even attempting conversation?

 

[watundah]

I feel your frustrations and understand how difficult it is. I believe change is possible, you just have to keep at it although it's taking much longer than you want it to. It's taking me years also to get a little comfortable in therapy. I am finding that writing helps alot, too. If I am in her office and the spotlight is on me and I am supposed to open up, oish! She prods and asks questions and puts up with two or three word answers. Writing allows me to compose my thoughts at my pace, and. I also have a therapist who is willing to do the heavy lifting. Thank God. What we have defined as my reason to be there is "connection". Like you. Decades of keeping folks at arms length is tough, and then we're supposed to give one person special permission to go where no one else is allowed to go? That's buckets of vulnerability right there. I do feel the wall coming down, one chink in a brick at a time. I can feel my therapist weaseling in through the cracks. Hang in there. It is hard. It truly is. But you will make progress and you deserve to heal.

 

[barefoot]

I understand how challenging and frustrating this can be. It's a conversation I've had many times with my therapist and she says similar things to yours - that there's no 'right' way to do therapy, that there's no such thing as being 'good' or 'bad' at therapy, that I don't need to worry about whether I'm doing it 'properly', that this is likely to be a slow/long process and we need to take our time and not try to rush things or force anything.

She basically says that I just have had to be whoever/however I need to be in any given session - and in any given moment in any session. That she doesn't have expectations and isn't ever going to make any judgements - we will just work with whatever shows up. And as @scout86 says - it's her job to manage that.

It sounds like you're trying to force things and rush things - and if that's the case, you'll probably just end up frustrated and exhausted. Burnt out. I know what a difficult place that is to be in.

If you're shutting down in therapy (and with other people), there's a reason why you're shutting down. It's taken me over a year of therapy to start to reach a point of trying to accept that I behave the way I do for a reason - and I think that reason is because on a deep, fundamental, largely unconscious level, I'm scared. It's not like I'm not trying, not taking things seriously, not committed to my sessions. And it's not that I don't like my therapist - I really do. If I could manage to be present and not defensive/shutdown, I would - because I'm not turning up every week with the intention of saying nothing. I consciously want to 'do the work'. I just can't seem to get to a certain level of the work at the moment. I get annoyed and frustrated with myself and think I'm wasting time and being rubbish. But I am trying to accept this fact - if I could do it I would but at the moment I can't. But I keep going because I trust that, in time (how much time?? No idea!) and with my therapist's support, I will be able to do a bit more and a bit more... So I'm trying to remind myself regularly that there's no point in me beating myself up over it. But it's bloody hard!

 

[scout86]

What if who-I-am is a total recluse with no natural ability to reach out?

Horses don't care. They actually seem to find that kind of thing "interesting" as long as it doesn't look like a threat. My T, I think, would see that as a challenge and would really get into finding ways around it. My first session, I think, started out like he probably deals with "most people". Except that it probably didn't go like "most people" and I think he saw that pretty quickly. From then on, we talked about all kinds of stuff. He had me do "home work assignments" that usually involved writing, answering questions that required some thought. In session, we talked about dogs, race cars (his hobby), all kinds of stuff. But not, near as I could tell, "therapy". As it happens, I'm intensely curious about lots of things. And was kind of used to the idea that nobody cares what I think. But then HE wanted to KNOW what I thought. :cautious: He found out about the curiosity deal and has used that as a hook, to get past stuff. I used to train horses, and I did the same thing with them. I really think, as long as the being you're working with is willing to try, there's a way to make things work. The challenge is finding the way.

the more repulsive I become.

I wonder about this. Is it possible that what's really going on is you THINK you become more repulsive? Maybe because you have some issues you need to work out with things like self worth and accepting the "real you"? Maybe even figuring out who "the real you" is?

You know that tone of voice? And how people are withdrawn, and trying to simplify things, to make sure you can understand them? I don't blame them. I was a fool to let down the masks. What's underneath is too bizarre. People can't handle it. I see the pity in their eyes.

Yes, the "Oh no, I'm dealing with a crazy person" tone of voice. A couple thoughts on this. Sometimes people really do that, I know they do. That's THEIR problem, even though it's annoying to have to deal with. That's THEM, trying to feel safely superior for reasons of their own. You shouldn't be getting that from your therapy team. My T keeps saying "different" is interesting, and he likes it and that "normal" is highly over rated. And that he's a bit different himself. (Which is probably a good thing!) You SHOULD be getting the message that what ever/who ever you are is ok. There are things you want to work on, true. Things that you might be able to, and want to improve, true, but YOU ARE OK. You seem pretty ok to me. And I'm thinking that this is more the "real you" that the version that's trying to deal with all the extra issues that come from the stress of trying to do things "right".

I'd curl up in a ball and shut everyone out.

Here's an idea for you. What do you think the horses would do if you did just exactly that? What do you think you therapy team would do? Think of it as an experiment. (I have a pretty good idea what the horses will do. I'm really curious about what the people would do. How they'd handle that would have some interesting things to say about THEM.)

@FridayJones , I've liked so many of YOUR posts 40 million times, we might be close to even. I STILL wish he'd come up with a "superlative like" button!:clown:

 

[barefoot]

A further thought because I've been pondering this since I last posted...I wonder if a first step could be not thinking about how you can connect better to your therapist, but how you can become more connected to yourself. I'm thinking that if you're getting stuck with the journalling, which is something for you to do on your own and will be for your eyes only, perhaps you're having difficulty connecting with yourself and feeling your own feelings etc. I know journalling isn't everyone's cup of tea, so I'm not suggesting that if you're not getting anything out of journalling, you have a problem! But I do think that if we don't know who we are or how we feel, or if we can't accept who we are or don't feel comfortable ourselves in our own skin, that makes it pretty impossible to make deep, meaningful, authentic connections with others. So maybe take a few steps back and there might be some stuff you could do around that, which will in time help to build a bridge to other people?

 

[DogwoodTree]

I do feel the wall coming down, one chink in a brick at a time. I can feel my therapist weaseling in through the cracks.

I suspect there's more going on with me than just a wall. I really think there's an underlying inability to connect. I can fake it well enough that the other person doesn't notice the difference, unless they're carefully attuned and well trained. But I have no idea how to be a real person with someone...ever...in any circumstance or relationship.

It sounds like you're trying to force things and rush things

Therapy is expensive. And I'm afraid that the longer this drags out......it's really hard watching what this is doing to my marriage and to my DH. If I could just get my head in the right place, it seems like this would all go away and we would be happy, kinda-normal people living the productive life (with our own brand of alternative lifestyle) we've built for ourselves.

If you're shutting down in therapy (and with other people), there's a reason why you're shutting down.

I'm shutting down--all the time, with everyone, on some level or another--because that's all I've ever known. I don't know how to be real with people. I tried exploring that over the past couple of years in a variety of relationships. But the more I tried to just "be"...whatever that looked like, no filter (more or less)...the more I turned into a crazy person. I don't like this person who emerges.

I sound more normal here by spending a great deal of time thinking about my posts before posting, and editing, revising, rereading, cleaning up, and everything else, to try to come across more clearly. Can't do that in a live conversation.

Maybe because you have some issues you need to work out with things like self worth and accepting the "real you"? Maybe even figuring out who "the real you" is?

We've talked about this being a primary goal in therapy for now...to get to know myself. What if I don't like the person people experience in me?

When I was a kid, I remember one conversation with two of my cousins about how crazy and weird our aunts and uncles were on that side of the family (my dad's side). We decided we would never be weird like them when we grew up. I've worked really hard to keep that stuff from surfacing, but it's not working. And it's not just garden-variety weird/different/unique-and-interesting. It's this-is-really-embarrassing-to-everyone-else and painful-to-watch-them-be-so-clueless weird. My mom has some strange traits, too.

I don't want to impose on people like that. I don't want to be so uncomfortable to be around. I'd rather not be there at all...just be invisible.

Thing is, I'm not like that on the inside. I actually do like myself inside my own inner world--when I'm completely alone, I like the thoughts I have, and the things I notice, and the connections I make. But it never comes out like that. The words don't come out right. My thoughts fall apart as I try to put them into words. I just can't seem to translate thoughts into something that forges a two-way connection with other people.

Sometimes people really do that, I know they do. That's THEIR problem, even though it's annoying to have to deal with. That's THEM, trying to feel safely superior for reasons of their own.

True. I seem to have found a whole bunch of them. My family treats me this way, too, always talking down to me. I know a lot of that is their issues--they do it to a lot of people, and it's deeply engrained in me because that's all I saw for the longest time...working super hard to get past that. I've watched it happen all my life, and seen it become even more obvious with them in the past 5 or 10 years since I started trying to eliminate that behavior for myself. A person is either one-up or one-down. There are very few equals, mostly just within the family, and I'm the scapegoat so I don't qualify.

There are also some people at church who do this. I've tried to let my guard down there and be real with them, but it has seriously backfired. I'm only still going there because the kids like going. This church has some unique features I haven't been able to find anywhere else. Plus, church hopping won't fix me, since my being more authentic is what caused the problem to begin with. Do we go somewhere else and I just work harder at maintaining the facade?

You SHOULD be getting the message that what ever/who ever you are is ok. There are things you want to work on, true. Things that you might be able to, and want to improve, true, but YOU ARE OK.

The Ts are never rejecting or critical. But sometimes they're more engaged than at other times. I still haven't figured out the difference...why some weeks have good conversation, and some weeks are dead in the water. What is it I do on the good weeks that draws them in? What is it I do on the bad weeks that drives them away? Sometimes they'll point out during a good conversation that I'm "more present this week" or something. But it seems to me like I'm simply responding to differences in them...their apparent interest in whatever we're talking about, and their own energy levels and focus. If they don't seem particularly interested and engaged, I shut down. What else is there to do?

[Hm. My "pattern alarm" is flashing. I've done this with the horses, too. As soon as I've determined that the horse or person or whoever is bored with what I'm offering, I back off and shut down. I don't want to impose myself on someone if it's not interesting for them.]

What do you think the horses would do if you did just exactly that? What do you think you therapy team would do?

One week early in equine therapy, I did try out something similar. It was towards the end of the session, the last 10 minutes just to wrap up, and they said I could do whatever felt right. I was feeling angry and desperate, because here was yet another session ending without my having a sense of connection or being understood at all. So I walked off, and went to a corner of the field, and just sat on a big rock for a few minutes. I didn't really have any expectations for any particular response from them, but I was curious what would happen. The horses stayed where they were, and the people went inside the barn and waited for me to come back. What else are they going to do? The only signals they're getting from me are, "go away, leave me alone" (even though that's not actually what I'm intending to communicate).

I know journalling isn't everyone's cup of tea,

I like journaling, usually...been doing it off and on since 8th grade.

perhaps you're having difficulty connecting with yourself and feeling your own feelings etc.

...a very common problem for many aspies. It's really been a huge challenge over the past couple of years of intense work, to learn how to identify or even just feel my own feelings. I'm always looking for an external processor for my feelings, like trying to run a program on a virtual hard drive in the cloud or something crazy like that. I've always watched people's reactions when I've shared bits of my story here and there. It seems like their emotional reactions to my story are the only real and valid responses. The feelings don't exist until someone else feels it for me.

But I do think that if we don't know who we are or how we feel, or if we can't accept who we are or don't feel comfortable ourselves in our own skin, that makes it pretty impossible to make deep, meaningful, authentic connections with others.

Yes, pretty much. Or, when what emerges comes across as offensive and reclusive (even if that's not the intent)...that's fairly prohibitive of meaningful connections, too.