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Abuse and PTSD

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It's possible to be verbally and emotionally abusive without ever raising your voice. I don't remember my mother ever yelling (heh, unless I've blanked it out) but my family ran on very very subtle signals. My mother's silence in response to me saying something filled me with more terror/dread/anger than my partner had from his father screaming at him, redfaced and shaking.

Disapproval/put downs/neglect - none of it needs yelling to be devastating.

I guess I'm just adding this because it seemed to be missing from the discussion. I've raised my voice, oh, maybe only once or twice in my life. But the anger/inappropriate behaviour was there without any yelling or screaming.
 
Do you feel that abuse is justifiable due to your illness? I have in the past at times. I try to make amends for it later. It's been a difficult lesson to learn, to go against everything I learned in childhood. It's been hard to break through the belief that my mother was perfect (in her eyes) and whatever she did was right. I now see that my past explains how I behave but doesn't excuse it.

Do different types of abuse seem less abusive? eg Is physical abuse worse than mental abuse? Mental abuse is harder to define, the lines are greyer, so perhaps that's what makes it seem less abusive. I suffered physical, sexual and emotional abuse as a child, plus some forms of neglect. That's what I've been using to try to answer this question - which has left the worst impact (although I know this question is in the context of current adult relationships). Starvation and emotional abuse have probably been the hardest to overcome (compared to physical and sexual abuse), so in the context of this question, I'd say emotional abuse is possibly more damaging.

Do you feel remorse after you have abused someone when having a bad day?
Sometimes it happens spontaneously, sometimes I need to have it pointed out to me.

Would you be happy if someone treated you like you treat them when you are having a bad PTSD day? I'm usually dissociated rather than angry. But yes. And I experience it sometimes from the point of view of a carer, because my partner is also working through past abuse issues/flashbacks/anger/dissociation.

Does uncontrolled PTSD or un-medicated PTSD allow you, in your own mind, to excuse more of your bad behaviour? Intellectually, the answer is no. But when I'm overwhelmed by triggers, in the heat of the moment, it feels justified. It takes a lot of effort afterwards to disentangle it.

If you have abused someone being in the throws of PTSD, did you feel remorse when you felt better? Usually, yes. Sometimes straight away, sometimes later, sometimes I need it to be pointed out to me what the effects of my behaviour were.

If you do abuse someone (inadvertent or not) do you realise that you are re-creating the cycle of abuse you yourself may have suffered but in a different way? Yes, most definitely. It's the motivation to try to change my behaviour. It's not easy, because I only know what not to do (ie to not do what I saw growing up) but I don't have any role models for healthy behaviour, so I have to read books and think about it a lot and watch other people, eg at work and try to copy what they do. But because I don't know what healthy behaviour looks like, sometimes I choose badly in terms of who to copy behaviour from. And everyone behaves differently, and I can't easily tell what's just variations of healthy behaviour, and what is unhealthy. This might seem obvious to others but it's extremely confusing for me.

Do you think that if the person who abused you was mentally ill changes the effect the abuse had on you? Would you find it easier to forgive them if you know they were mentally ill? It explains it to some extent but in no way excuses it, particularly the physical and sexual abuse - because I can't see how under what circumstances could cause someone to kick a young child repeatedly in the stomach, or smash their head against a washing machine, or sexually assault a four year old. (and it's not person singular, it's plural for me) I don't think I can ever forgive what happened to me. I'm hoping I get to the point where I can stop being angry and resentful for it and wanting them to be punished in some way. But that is quite different to forgiving them, because in my mind, forgiveness = acceptance of the actions/behaviour.

Do you know what the cycle of abuse is and do you think any aspect of your PTSD symptoms cause you to model the cycle in your personal life? To some extent, yes. I can see in my past that I've acted out repetition behaviours and I'm sometimes sickened by seeing that. My partner and I have been gradually realising over the past 4 or 5 years how our relationship dynamic has been influenced by our childhoods and we've been gradually changing how we think/act towards each other. We're now in couples counselling to get help with finding healthier ways to support each other and to identify other ways to behave/think.
 
Disapproval/put downs/neglect - none of it needs yelling to be devastating.

I had both the yelling and screaming and the cold silences while growing up. The yelling, with its unpredictible nature and having to walk on egg shells, was bad enough. The cold silences were the worst for me. Things were really bad when all of the yelling stopped.

To this day when my husband gets quiet on me (whether he's angry or just had a bad day) I have to fight from freaking out and wonder what I did to cause it. It's this knee-jerk reaction for me.

Lisa
 
The cold silences were the worst for me. Things were really bad when all of the yelling stopped.
Lisa


I, too, had the cold silences - which most of the time were also accompanied by "glares". They were definitely the most terrifying for me - because something was brewing, it was as if the devil had taken over my mother's body during these moments.

After reading all of these responses, I question whether or not I answered mine correctly. I guess I'm still on the fence about what is considered abusive. It's definitely something I need to think hard and long about.

Best,
Rachel
 
To this day when my husband gets quiet on me (whether he's angry or just had a bad day) I have to fight from freaking out and wonder what I did to cause it. It's this knee-jerk reaction for me.

Ditto. If I say something and there's silence, even if it's just because the other person didn't hear that I'd spoken, I tend to freak out and assume that they're angry at me and I feel very unsafe.
 
This is why I don't consider my parents being abusive. They do not fit the mold of what I consider abusive. They never yelled and screamed. They were glaring, ignoring and more of the emotionally abandoning type. When something bad happened I would not dare tell them because I assumed they would shift the blame to me as they did with so many other things. The only physically abusive thing they did was beat me with the wire-end of the fly-swatter, but to this day she said if she had not done that I would probably be in prison today. It was not abuse in her eyes; it was discipline.

However, I would never do that to my children, because I consider it abuse. So I am back to what is abusive? I don't know. It is confusing.
 
So I am back to what is abusive? I don't know. It is confusing.

This sort of thing is confusing. My parents never ever yelled or screamed at me. However, in combination with the physical and sexual abuse, I've gradually come to realise my experiences were at the more severe end in terms of abuse.

I have a lot of information (books, articles etc) about child abuse. Here's some relevant dot points from one of them about emotional abuse. I've typed it out, in part because it makes me confront past trauma, and partly because I think it's quite well written and helpful. I hope that it's ok to put this sort of information in this thread.

Emotional abuse

This occurs when an adult's behaviour towards a child happens repeatedly and causes the child to feel frightened, ashamed, upset, alone and have low self-worth.

Such behaviours include:
  • constantly ignoring a child's need for attention and how they feel or failing to spend time and listen to a child.
  • constantly criticising, teasing, belittling or 'putting down' a child.
  • constantly shouting and screaming at a child.
  • ignoring and refusing to help or accept a child.
  • calling a child by degrading names and shaming the child in front of others.
  • threatening to physically abuse a child or abandon them.
  • constantly ignoring a child and refusing to show affection.
  • withdrawing love or threatening to do so.
When children experience these behaviours, they feel unlovable, worthless and lack self-confidence. They are likely to have trouble forming positive relationships with other children or adults.
I experienced pretty much all of those growing up as a constant background except the shouting and screaming.

I think it's also a useful way of thinking about emotional abuse in the context of adult relationships.
 
Abuse suffered is NEVER EVER an excuse for committing abuse. And I don't care what kind is being discussed- physical, mental, emotional, sexual, neglect- whatever. And there's no big mystery to defining abuse, either. Did something happen to you- once or constantly- that damaged your ability to be a rational, functional, sane human capable of love, respect, and compassion? If so, then you experienced abuse. If a parent yells at a kid because said kid is being a pain in the ass (as all kids are at some point) or because said parent is short on patience that day (as all parents are at some point), this is not abuse. This is human. It enrages me the piddly things being classified as abusive these days. Occasionally families argue and yell at each other- not abusive. Rarely, a child needs a swat on the bottom to bring home a point like "Don't run into the street without looking."- also not abusive. Now, my father calling me a whore and a **** while he was raping me- abusive. My mother buying his bourbon before food for a growing child- neglectful. My parents getting into fights so loud and vicious that neighbors three houses away called the cops- abusive. Being forced to watch and participate in the torture of small animals and pets- abusive. I'm soapboxing. I'm sorry- this type of discussion makes me a little wonky. I've heard way too many people claim abuse as an excuse for the most atrocious actions and then say (essentially) "I'm not responsible for what I do because I was abused." It revolts me. Andrew Vachss, a writer and attorney I admire greatly, said to me in an email "There is nothing bio-genetic about evil." He's right. There is ALWAYS a choice. Become one of Them, or fight with all you've got NOT to become what was done to you. It's the only choice that really matters for anyone like us. red
 
I was honest in my post because I have and still am facing up to all the ways I have behaved inappropriately with my partner in the past when mentally ill, and he is doing the same. Once one is concious of it, then there is no excuse, and amends must be made. Denial/dissociation is hard to face. Breaking down the childhood beliefs is triggery, the fear of death can get overwhelming because going against what the parents believed as a child = potential death. Learning basic life skills in our 30s that most people take for granted.

We are still learning and we know we may not want to be together at the end of the process, but we are trying to heal the damage from our childhoods and from adulthood - making amends will either make it possible to stay together, or if we don't end up staying together, we will go out into the world with a lighter load.


I have my own soapbox - one person's experience is not another's.
 
Would you be happy if someone treated you like you treat them when you are having a bad PTSD day? I'm usually dissociated rather than angry. But NO. And I experience it sometimes from the point of view of a carer, because my partner is also working through past abuse issues/flashbacks/anger/dissociation.

Gah. Sorry for so many posts in this thread, but I was just reading my replies out to my partner and realised I'd written yes instead of no, and I can't go back and edit. So I'm editing it here.
 
* Do you feel that abuse is justifiable due to your illness? To an extent yes. Is it 100% excusable? No. I think I am in Clinton territory as in what is the meaning of is? Hell, I would never been a huge ass and hit my spouse had I been healthy. It was PTSD moments that I did hit. Same that I damn near killed myself, had I done that if in a right mind?

* Do different types of abuse seem less abusive? eg Is physical abuse worse than mental abuse? Depends on receiver but in general no.

* Do you feel remorse after you have abused someone when having a bad day? I had more than a bad day, chances were in my head I was raped again and almost died again. There lies the problem, I lived it again and to another I had a bad day.

* Would you be happy if someone treated you like you treat them when you are having a bad PTSD day? Hmmm, this seems like a 3 yo line up of questioning, if I had that easy of control I doubt I would be diagnosed.

* Does uncontrolled PTSD or un-medicated PTSD allow you, in your own mind, to excuse more of your bad behaviour? No, but it sure as hell explained a lot later once treated and told what I had.

* If you have abused someone being in the throws of PTSD, did you feel remorse when you felt better? Of course.

* If you do abuse someone (inadvertent or not) do you realise that you are re-creating the cycle of abuse you yourself may have suffered but in a different way? At the time I did not, I felt I defended myself (adult abuse )


* If you have PTSD as a result of being abused....do you think that if the person who abused you was mentally ill changes the effect the abuse had on you? Would you find it easier to forgive them if you know they were mentally ill? Later down the road yes. Would it change the effect of abuse? Ummm That other part of question is pointless as already ill.

* Do you know what the cycle of abuse is and do you think any aspect of your PTSD symptoms cause you to model the cycle in your personal life? No, I lashed out not in front of kids and hubby literally asked me to let it out. It was short lived and I was letting out frustration on someone 2 times my size. We saw I did not feel better so no place to blow, I had to learn meditating.
 
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