Other Actual Or Immediate Threat Of Death Or Injury: How Does It Work?

[dnp]

Captivity is castastrophic injury even if it doesnt involve torture and it leaves you (what seems forever and sometimes is) captive in your own mind even year and years after you are no longer in captivity. Thats castastropic injury PSYCHOLOICAL.

Whats the point here?

AMA has a working definition of catastrophic injury involving serious injuries to the spinal cord and brain (ie TBI) and I think that's the definition that will apply. You can't just make up your own definitions to include psychological injury or whatever. That's not how it works. If you can find me a solid source that includes psychological injury as part of catastrophic injury, point me to it and I'll absolutely consider it.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

If you can find me a solid source that includes psychological injury as part of catastrophic injury, point me to it and I'll absolutely consider it.

Ummmmm, me!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

If you can find me a solid source that includes psychological injury as part of catastrophic injury, point me to it and I'll absolutely consider it.

Ummmmm, me!

To add, and i absolutly appologize if this goes way off topic, it just sorta made me upset.

If you dont think that being raised in a Satanic like cult, being forced to do, and see horrific things and tortured in horrific ways from age 6 to age 18 but not cut contact until age 19; finally being forced into therapy, spent 7 yrs in therapy and it took 7 yrs to just move blame off myself and onto them which opened A TON of doors but didnt change much, still not having control of your own brain and your therapist tells your insurence therapist that i may have to be in therapy the rest of my life..everything in my brain still works on automatic with no control over it at all, still having a massive (completely non-understood) urges to re-do all but 1 of the rituals and punishment 16 yrs later....and then some..

If you dont call that "psychological injury as part of catastrophic injury" then you really need to go research some more in my opinion.

I will NEVER be the person I should have been and I will NEVER get fully better. And I am still, 16 yrs later in capitivity in my own brain! I call that catastrophoc psychological injury!

There IS psychological catastrophic injury AND they dont have to be like my past either!

Im sorry, i didnt mean to go off topic...i got upset...

 

[joeylittle]

Women in Saipan took their small children and jumped off the cliffs in WW2 to avoid capture by the Americans despite the Americans' decent treatment of prisoners. Fear and horror are to some degree individualized.

Absolutely. I just think that the odds are that, after one jumps, there is the biological instinct to try and stop the falling - if that makes sense. Death can absolutely seem like the best alternative, but I would be surprised if anyone, in the midst of experiencing a violent death, doesn't have a brief, sudden, need to survive. Not psychologically, biologically.

AMA has a working definition of catastrophic injury involving serious injuries to the spinal cord and brain (ie TBI) and I think that's the definition that will apply.

The more common working definition involves parsing things out into permanent, functional/loss of function, transient but significant. The AMA 'working definition' doesn't apply across medical disciplines. But no-one should be implying catastrophic injury means psychological injury - it means the big bad stuff that changes your life forever.

Catastrophic injuries are defined as: fatalities, permanent disability injuries, serious injuries (fractured neck or serious head injury) even though the athlete has a full recovery, temporary or transient paralysis (athlete has no movement for a short time, but has a complete recovery), heat stroke due to exercise, or sudden cardiac arrest or sudden cardiac or severe cardiac disruption.

from http://nccsir.unc.edu/definition-of-injury/

If you can find me a solid source that includes psychological injury as part of catastrophic injury, point me to it and I'll absolutely consider it.

@lostforgottensoul - I'll disagree with you and say that - in terms of a PTSD diagnosis - it's the threat of catastrophic physical injury that creates the psychological injury. We can all agree that there's a connection between PTSD and a spike to the limbic system (I think we can all agree on that). PTSD is the psychological injury. It is brought about by direct exposure to actual or immediate threat of death, catastrophic injury, or sexual violence.

When someone holds your head underwater, and you think you are going to drown - you are experiencing immediate threat of death or catastrophic injury. And that experience can lead to PTSD.

And yes, PTSD is a horrible thing. But until they understand it scientifically more than they do today, it's only hypothesis that says it's a physical injury at all. not enough is known.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

@joeylittle but now im confused about PTSD again (sorry for my ignorance).

Say i was in the cult, was at a young age convinced that this was the way, isolated, convinced id go somewhere worse and lets say none of the punishments happened, that somehow i was convinced without punishment to hurt animals without threat, convinced "its what god wanted"...basically say brainwahed without the physical stuff and say even without the sexual stuff, though thats hard to imagine but lets say that as a young child i was told this is how its supposed to be.

So without the violence, sexual stuff, perceived possible death that i wouldnt have PTSD?

Wouldnt i still have flashbacks, the terror and some of the other things that come with PTSD?

Im just trying to understand is all.

 

[joeylittle]

Say i was in the cult, was at a young age convinced that this was the way, isolated, convinced id go somewhere worse

I bolded the important bit. Whatever it was that convinced you that there was something worse, means two things: there was a threat, and you understood that where you were was bad.

It's hard to do a hypothetical like this because, as you said, it verges on there not being anything wrong. Fear of physical damage is the underpinning of most things - even if it's not at the completely conscious level. When I was super-little I was afraid of the dark. It was because the dark would 'get me'. I had no mental image of what 'get me' was, except I knew it was too horrible to think about. That's actually fear of physical pain or death, in the mind of a four-year-old.

Does that help?

 

[joeylittle]

So without the violence, sexual stuff, perceived possible death that i wouldnt have PTSD?

It only takes one thing. But yes, at some point, you thought that you were going to not live, or not stay intact as a human being.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

It only takes one thing. But yes, at some point, you thought that you were going to not live, or not stay intact as a human being.

Ok, i can get that, both replies, but what about when we were talking about watching or seeing very horrid things. In my case actual real life murders on video & pictures but like with say (not cops cuz they have perceived possible death) but what about say EMTs that see horrific things that end up with PTSD?

For EMTs thers not necessarly percieved possible death.

Basically im asking, does one have to percieve possible death to get PTSD?

 

[joeylittle]

what about say EMTs that see horrific things that end up with PTSD?

That's the second clause; they have sustained exposure to it - so while it's not happening to them, they are faced with it enough times that there is an effect.

but what about when we were talking about watching or seeing very horrid things. In my case actual real life murders on video & pictures

This is a horrible experience - and according to the absolute letter of the definition, if this is all that happened to you, and it only happened once, it would not be sufficient for a diagnosis. If it happened repeatedly, over time, and you were not choosing to watch them, then it would also be covered by the second clause.

 

[anthony]

AMA has a working definition of catastrophic injury

In law, AMA definitions may not apply versus legal terms. Vice versa. This is the issue... it doesn't matter what you use, it IS being exploited. Trying to close those exploits is our current aim, along with tightening the entire diagnosis so that it gets back to what it was designed to do -- diagnose those identified to have experienced and as consequence, be suffering from traumatic experiences outside the normal scope of life experiences.

 

[anthony]

Injury, period, tends to be a term being used for political correctness versus defined accuracy. They do not know what PTSD is, it is primarily hypothesised with psychological roots that whilst it can cause physical changes, those same changes are also proven malleable to date, thus negating any injury, as physical brain changes are proven to not be one size fits all. Some have some changes, others other changes, some no changes, yet all suffer PTSD.

To date it is deemed psychological. I'm a little tired of hearing about injury, as there is even less evidence to support that than psychological, yet it is another facet becoming political for all the wrong reasons.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I dont know, I guess I started to understand it all a bit better until someone threw it "catastrophic injury" being physical only and now Im just all confused again, I think moreso.

Its hard to say what sort of issues Id have today if only one of all happened but it was getting easier to sort of pick it all apart and catigorize it all I guess and Im sure that I dont remember fearing for death due to accepting it, dissociating etc. But it was getting easier to sort of 'get' it all and also made me look at it all one by one.

I never thought of PTSD changing my brain physically and/or chemically. I knew I was psychologically changed, likely permantly, but I just never thought of it as actual brain changes.

Hopefully reading more about how those describe catastrophic injury will help. I know sexual assult/abuse covers the majority of my past but I really would like to know how the other stuff effects me as well.

I didnt mean to ramble, just sorta wanted to explain my upset and confusion I guess.