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An Airborne Spy During Vietnam War?

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Hey Recon

It makes me mad when I hear about stuff like this. You join the service, do your job and then they throw you away like a piece of crap. It's wrong in every way that I can think of. Seems like they've covered their tracks pretty well. But it doesn't mean that you should give it up either. Of course it's your choice and you've got to do what feels right for you. Just wish I could be of more help. I will be seeing some people from the VA in a week or so and I'm going to run it by them to see if they have any options that would help. You never know.

Jar
This sitaution also raises my blood pressure. Many of my former troopers were screwed by the VA -- but many lawyers will takes cases such as this on a pro bono basis. It if funny how the paper-pushing desk jockeys smarten up when they are served papers for a law suit. The message: don't give up!
 
JarHed makes a good point. I held a TS/SCI clearance for about all of my 24 years so I am very familiar with classification guidelines. Your missions should be public record by now...at least the fact they took place. Details are probably still classified. You should be able to submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for the basic details. Also, at least currently, while the meat of the deployments were obviously classified, the location and length of them is typically not classified AFTER the event takes place. Hope this helps.

I have to say that, overall, I'm really thrilled over the supportive responses I've been getting in this forum. I had posted my story in another veterans forum last year. It was not a PTSD forum, so I mainly focused my inquiries over how I might be able to get my DD214 changed to reflect my combat service. The reaction I got from most of the respondents was total disbelief. Many said "I can't believe that the government would lie about where you flew and what you did" or "Dude, if it isn't on your DD214 then it just didn't happen." That last reaction was exactly the same one that I got when I initially tried to change my combat status with my local VA Medical Center. The guy at the desk (another fellow veteran) told me that if it wasn't listed on my separation documents, then it just couldn't be true.

That hurts - a lot - especially when your own fellow veterans chime in with the VA system to make it sound like you must be crazy or something. There was one reaction that was even more painful than the others: he said something to the effect of "I hear stories like that from drunks at the VFW bar all the time. The more booze they drink, the more of a combat hero they become." It's reactions like that from my own brothers, as well as the rejections from the VA itself, that diminish my will to continue pursuing this.

You guys, however, are beginning to reignite a spark of hope. Thanks.
 
Welcome mate, i totally agree about not being worth much, as in life, but i never did anything for the money ( The wife may say differently but she aint got the password to this or my napper !;))
 
Welcome aboard. I've been trying to get my DD214 changed also. Records are hidden deep in the Pentagon Vault proving what I did and where it all went down, Its amazing how information can disappear. Keep fighting to get it changed and hang in there.
 
...I flew as a crew member aboard RC-135 reconnaissance missions along with other Chinese, Vietnamese and/or Korean linguists to locations in and around North Vietnam, China, and Korea...I've since learned that there are PTSD treatment programs and other benefits within the VA system available only to "combat" veterans. Since my DD214 does not accurately reflect my service as a "combat" veteran I have written to the appropriate offices in the VA to have it corrected.

VAR,
Sorry, I just now got around to this but I share at least two issues with you. When you wrote this I was getting my DD 214 updated for the same reason, to show combat. Also, same Hog missions but during the cold war from 6985th out of Eielson ten years after you were at 90th. I did enjoy a TDY to Oki and got to see the giant fruit bats and the SR-71s fly from there!

The VA responded exactly the same way so I can understand what you were told. The biggest issue seems to be the other services are better representing "combat" on a DD 214 than the USAF. I deployed with the Army so it wasn't too bad for me. Unfortunately, most RC combat recon missions are initiated from a remote base to the technical "combat" zone. You're get into a catch 22, serving on combat missions from a non combat location.

I'll send you a PM with the paperwork I accomplished. You'll send a letter and they send you a DD 215 which shows the corrections. I got it all fixed fairly easily but I also had just retired and I had a OIF campaign medal and performance report. I had three sections corrected: 12F - time in foreign service , 13 - Medal (OIF campaign) , 18 - Remarks (member served in AOR) .

The remarks section is your best bet & also we need to see if you qualified for any campaign medals for Nam you did not yet get credited on your DD 214. The request is easy. Also, the VA won't fix it as you probably know already, SAF/MRBR is the office. You can just copy my letter.

I'll put the rest in the PM

Will follow-up soon.
 
The government told us we weren't spies, but then they trained us to lie about what we were doing in the event that our aircraft was shot down and we were taken as prisoners.We were supposed to tell our enemies that we were in their air space to observe their weather conditions. HA!

Upon enlisting in the Air Force in 1971 I was sent to the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA where I learned Chinese Mandarin. After several other training programs (including additional Chinese language instruction, radio telecommunications/audio recording school, and POW, water landing, and jungle survival schools) I was shipped off to Okinawa, Japan. From the base there I flew as a crew member aboard RC-135 reconnaissance missions along with other Chinese, Vietnamese and/or Korean linguists to locations in and around North Vietnam, China, and Korea. Once we arrived at our destination we flew in a continuous oval orbit, listening to, recording, and translating various radio transmissions broadcast from our target country languages into English. We flew those oval patterns for 12 full hours and received mid-air refuelings from KC-135 tankers as needed.

We were certainly not invited to those locations, and so we were not welcomed guests. As such, we were sometimes chased away by fighter aircraft or otherwise encouraged to leave the area. At other times,extremely turbulent weather or mechanical failures (such as the breakdown of one or more of our four engines, engine fires, leaking oxygen from the cabin, loss of hydraulics, etc) forced us to make the dangerous 2, 3, or 4 hour flight back to our home base in Okinawa.

After suffering in silence for nearly 40 years, I was finally diagnosed by the VA with PTSD caused as a result of several close calls while flying on those missions. Now, so much of what has happened to me over the years finally makes sense including: drinking and smoking to excess, having a great deal of difficulty sleeping, anxiety attacks, depression, having been fired from multiple jobs, etc. It really kind of pisses me off that no one from the VA ever reached out to me during all that time since my discharge. The only reason I made my way into the VA system at all was because my private health insurance became way too expensive to afford. I applied for and was accepted for VA health care due to my low income back in 2004 - and it was a couple of years after that when I learned that they had diagnosed me with PTSD. In fact, I discovered it all by accident when I requested a copy of my records and read the diagnosis for myself. They didn't even have the balls to tell me that they had diagnosed me with PTSD; I had to pry into my medical records to inadvertently come across it!

Now for the real kicker: the reconnaissance missions we participated in and the intelligence we gathered were highly classified - I was investigated beforehand and given the highest security clearance available. Many of our missions were conducted smack-dab inside the Vietnam combat zone for which we received monthly combat/hazardous duty pay. Perhaps due to the highly classified nature of our work or for some other reason, no mention was ever made on my DD214 of where I performed my duties or exactly what I did. That means that there's no mention of my having worked in the combat zone anywhere on my DD214.

I've since learned that there are PTSD treatment programs and other benefits within the VA system available only to "combat" veterans. Since my DD214 does not accurately reflect my service as a "combat" veteran I have written to the appropriate offices in the VA to have it corrected. They've written back to me and told me that since no records were ever kept of the specific flights I flew on then they cannot amend my records. I've even shown them the orders awarding me my permanent wings for having flown the initial 10 combat missions (their words, not mine) as well as my pay records that reflect my combat pay for each of the nearly 30 months that I flew those missions. Still, they refuse to correct my DD214. Am I wrong to consider myself a "combat" veteran? Maybe I am...

Lastly, I was able to apply for and am receiving service-connected disability payments for my PTSD. My award letter states that I was able to satisfactorily prove my combat participation to them for the purpose of granting me the award. The VA, however, still refuses to amend my DD214 which continues to prevent me from getting free treatment for PTSD at Veteran Service Centers. They say it's because they are only authorized to treat "combat" veterans who have their combat duty clearly reflected on their DD214s.

I'm sorry for posting such a long introduction on this forum. It helps me at times just to be able to vent my frustrations!
 
Excuse this late entry into the discussion, but I, too, flew with the 6990th in SEA from '70 - '72. 177 Missions - Either the Laos track, the Tonkin track, and now and then the Vladivostok run. I don't recall any of the crews having "close calls" - ever. You failed to mention the MigCaps - two flights of four F-4 Phantoms that flew as the airborne guards. There was always one flight high and above and another low and below. If you think you were "chased" by fighters, you were misinformed. ANY fighter could down a Hog that was flying alone, but only one time in 26 months did we have Migs come up for ANY mission, and the Phantoms chased them off before they came into visual range,. The Chinese NEVER launched. The Russians sometimes put up a BEAR and flew in formation, but they were never a threat. In flight emergencies caused aborts to Tan Son Nhut or CCK or Yakota, and were treated more as a chance for a couple of days off, rather than a harrowing experience. We had an abrupt simultaneous loss of two engines while over Laos. Other than a couple of minutes of terror, it was something that was laughed off later at the club. No one said anything about it being the basis for a PTSD claim 40 years later.

I, too, saw that there was no mention of SEA time on my DD214, for the simple reason that the missions did not start or end there. I received credit for the days we spent on the ground in Saigon while the acft was repaired, but that's all. I had the 214 amended to reflect the 177 combat missions, but was told, more than once, that missions that start out outside the combat zone, and end 12-20 hours back at home, did not make me a "Combat Veteran".
 
Well, I did not fly recon or RC missions off the coast but I did have the clearances to go on the ground into places we denied then going. And I had the same trouble with records and so do guys in SF who I accompanied and others I trailed when I went out to save their asses when they went down..

Ops Plan 34 missions that were not in the combat zone, it's true, were not and are not considered "combat" unless you fly over a combat zone. And Laos and Cambodia WERE combat zones if you wore a uniform. If not, you still received other pay and credit for them but not from the VA. I know guys (like my father) who flew those missions for the AF and have "Operations SEA" in their DD-214. I have a list of those missions and they add up to the total hours he flew in "combat" as a nav/bomb on 52's and 135's that did fly outside those zones (before and after) and he still received combat pay and credit for those missions. And not all Cobal missions had fighter escorts. My father talked about them often -- albeit before the 70's rolled around -- and he planned those missions for refueling when they got stuck and they did. Fighter escorts were a luxury. Plush, like Thailand titties.

If it were true that missions had to start or stop inside the combat zone, there's a whole lot of crews that had better pay the VA back.

Kos, if you think that it takes being shot or shot at to get PTSD then think again.
 
Kos, there has to be someone who can rubber stamp your documents. I know plenty of Spec Ops Veterans that the only deployments they had were to places that were not included in the AO.
If you had legitimate missions then go higher, it is 30 + years down the track now, so a lot of the classified stuff is out in the open, including the black ops over the border into Cambodia and Laos. There will be a record somewhere. You just have to find the right people to fight it.

Does your old unit still exist? If so, make an appointment with their Int Officer or the CO.
 
One thing that seems to have helped get me VA benefits was a series of sites that displayed all the missions in some of the units I was sent to. I found out where they got that information, despite my name being missing on some of them I distinctly remember as being pretty rough. Voila, at least there was some evidence. But I still had trouble proving appointments I know I had early on that were years ago, just when I was in the hospital. I remember having to take the bus all the way across Tampa Bay. There was something that got disconnected when the active duty hospitals transfer records to the NRC.
 
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