Distored Thinking - Should Statements

[Ronin]

... that part may be too difficult to start with, especially if one's feeling trapped with all the should's / must / need's, as I gathered Mallaky's been feeling (it being encoded in the language, in the culture, in experience with people / socialization about 'everywhere' around). (Just acknowledging / pointing out possible rocks in that road).

If I may I found 'I should... I don't have to' be a rather good bridge in the meantime; acknowledging the original automatic thought, adding another possibility before building up toward Choice-thinking. Waiting for the automatic thought to become less automatic, and / or less pressuring, for starters.

 

[shimmerz]

adding another possibility before building up toward Choice-thinking.

I agree. Choices and learning the possibility of making them or them even existing (who me? choices?) is a far step. Thanks Cashew. I like the idea of your bridge. Even 'I don't have to' takes large work but I think it is a great plan to start out.

 

[joeylittle]

Just a tiny opinion from a different angle.

The way we think is affected by the words we use, and vice-versa. It's very common here in America also to say 'should'. And a great deal of the time, it's just habit. But the habit of saying 'should' still reinforces the belief that there is someone watching over your shoulder, waiting to see if you did what you 'should' do. It's subtle, but it's also kind of profound.

Being specific with language is a choice, and choosing to pay attention to the words you use will automatically lead to a change in how you think about the things you are articulating.

Just take 'I should go to the store'. Honestly, I don't think I can think of a reason to ever say that sentence. It could be:

• I'm out of milk and won't have any in the morning if I don't go to the store.
• I told my roommate I would go to the store and pick up things for dinner.
• I want to get out of the house, and going to the store is a thing I could do.
• I want to go to the store.
• I don't want to go to the store, but I will because I need something.
• I don't want to go to the store, so I'm not going today.

Or even, the simplest fix - just 'I'll go to the store'. Next time someone asks you what you will do today, instead of rattling off a list that goes like 'I should stop at the bank, and I really should clean the kitchen, and I should call my sister' - say 'I'll stop at the bank, clean the kitchen, and call my sister.' You can still change your mind later and do none of these things. But your language will not be causing you to put guilt or responsibility on yourself where there need be none.

And just because it's habit, doesn't mean its right. Just because it's common, doesn't mean it's helpful.

I'm working on training myself to not use 'always' and 'never' in the common distorted ways. Now, when I go to say something about a length of time, I'll nearly automatically move from 'always' in my head to 'nearly always', if that's the truth - or 'half the time', if that's actually more true - or even, I'll find, it's actually 'sometimes', not an 'always' at all.

And none of this causes me to go anywhere near all the painful reasons why I might think the ways I do...because it's also just language. I'm just using more specific language, to really say what I mean and to say it with awareness. That's all. Sometimes, it's even fun.

 

[JustBe]

For me, it has been a difficult process started and reinforced by my therapist, to let go of the past indoctrination of what or how I should be or what I could have done or said. She reminds me that that is all part of the distorted thinking that traps me in the past.

I fought it at first because it was all wrapped up in my negative self image of how I could never measure up and how I was less than. Now I find it empowering and freeing. If I'm having a very bad day it helps me to get back on track to become the me I can be.

 

[Friday]

Would have responded yesterday, but needed to do the whole sleep thing.

to get laughed at and my issues ridiculed

So, I am sorry to all and especially Link Removed for this unnecessary drama. It was my truth this morning.
I can still see how one (past me) could percieve the post as slightly flippant and condescending, but now I know that is an accident and not intention. I was absolutely unable to see, think or even consider this a few hours ago. The only thing I saw was somebody being deliberaty hurtfull and having tremendous success.

No worries. If anything, it's kind of the perfect thread for it... CogDistortion #5 Jumping to Conclusions. It was not my intent to be hurtful at all, much less deliberately. Nor was I laughing at you, or ridiculing you.

Quite frankly, I'd rather have someone come straight out and tell me their interpretation of what I meant, as you did, than just assume they know it and say nothing. One better is to simply ask. Has saved me a lot of grief in both directions... Both when I ask someone else, or they ask me.

Either way, even if you don't feel that way now, in my own life I work from the principle that if it's happened once? Will probably happen again. Besides they're some pretty valid Qs.

<<To be very very clear up front: I am not saying any of this below is how you think/feel about any of this right now. We're looking at distortions, which are by nature, distorted. Distortions come & go. Just answering past questions..>>

- Why the hell do you feel the need regurgitate that stuff, when in my post I clearly express that I do not understand it..

Because if I'm going to say something I expect to be challenged, I like to reference my source material.

Where I quoted you: If I had just said "Should seems to be the least of your problems, you're over generalizing, labeling, disqualifying the positive, & trapped in black & white thinking surrounding all 3." and hit post? That would spawn at least several more threads where I'd have needed to cut/paste anyway, and most likely an argument. I'd rather reference things straight up so a person can see what I'm talking about, and either agree/disagree from there.

The LOL, by the by, comes from exactly that... Either you are very aware that you have 4 CogDistortions running amok, or you were just about to be handed something unpleasant, and I was trying to do it in the nicest way I could. I have PTSD, therefore I have cognitive distortions in spades. Most of us have all 10, with at least a few deeply ingrained, so it was a rueful thing.

Where I quoted the 10 CDs? Exactly because you said you didn't understand them so they were easy for you to reference. You were talking about 1 CD, I brought up 3 others, it only seemed polite to give you the whole list. I goofed a bit; there's a much longer version of those 10 with more in depth explanations on the homepage, and I meant to link it and forgot.

***

- Did I not make it clear to you that from my point of view, yes, everyone I ever had a meaningfull interaction with was governed and lost by the Shoulds and Shouldnts..

Nope. Actually, if you had said "Everyone I have meaningful interactions with,"... That would be an entirely different problem than "Everyone I have ever had a meaningful interaction with," which is still yet different from "Everyone does XYZ to me."

> Everyone I have meaningful ... Is actually a very closed & narrowly defined statement. Speaks to some seriously toxic people in your life. That may well not be a cognitive distortion at all! You could be working an oil rig, or boat, or be in prison, or be isolated in an ongoing absolve situation, or any of hundreds of possibilities, where that is a completely TRUE statement. Needs more investigation. I'm not going to tell someone they're wrong, when I have no idea if they are.

> Everyone I have ever had meaningful ... Just threw open the floodgates as far as time is concerned. Probably some distortion in there. But also possible that it's been nonstop abuse for 20/30/however many years. It would mean that your wife, your kids, your coworkers, each and every single meaningful person in your life is and has always been pretty abusive terrible person to you. Theoretically possible. But highly unlikely.

> Everyone has always... Threw open the other half of the floodgates. Now not just time, but now it's not even limited to meaningful relationships but *everyone*. Massive distortion there.

***

- Did I fail to explain that I have an obviously distorted core belief, and see the worlds in shoulds and shouldnts, and dont understand how else to see it, and that I attribute my total isolation to it?.

Nope. You explained that quite well. Better, I think, than you know. IME Core Beliefs are propped up by a supporting cast. What feeds your should statements? Black&White thinking, over generalization / labeling, & disqualifying the positive. That's kind of freaking awesome, actually. Makes it way easier to cut should statements off at the knee... When you know where the legs are!

***

- Why even mentioning passing strangers?.

Because they're important. @Kefira's running statement is the perfect example as to why. The other piece because you didn't limit it to meaningful relationships in your OP (and I looked), although you did limit it geographically. That's an important distinction; everyone vs. everyone important to me. The geographic limit knocks the number down from a couple billion, to the population of Germany & surrounding areas, but it's still a few hundred million.

***

- When there is no interaction there is no room for expressings shoulds and shouldnts, is there? Why not ants or moons, it is as relevant..

<grin> Then you are very, very lucky to have never met with the condemnation of strangers! I have. I have also had days where I'm convinced not just "everyone" hates me, but also the weather & insects (particularly mosquitos, but I've had fire ants take an intense dislike to me as well ;) )

But for real, I've been publicly shamed on more than one occasion. Not in the press, but that's a good example... How many times have you heard strangers talking to each other, telling themselves what some celebrity or political leader "should" or "shouldn't" have done? :rolleyes: Armchair Quarterbacking, Backseat Driving, Contempt Prior to Investigation, I Would Never, ... We've got tons of names for it. Sometimes it's a judgement, sometimes a self defense mechanism, sometimes mental masturbation, etc. Personally, I like to roll with "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has got one, and they all stink." ;)

So... Not irrelevant on 3 levels... First off at least my own distortions *do* reach cosmic levels (weather, etc,), and then there is also cultural inoculation in those thousands upon thousands of split second interactions (strangers shaming strangers), and for some of us at least some out & out public shaming by strangers (strangers shaming us).

***

- Are these distorted thoughts not about having learnt and having deeply, deeply ingrained destructive ways of thinking?.

That's exactly what they are, to the best of my understanding.

***

- Is me expressing that I feel trapped in one of those and want to learn more about it and discuss it an invitation to throw the same stuff that I am obviously stuck on back into my face?.

Yes. By definition, if we're going to discuss something, we're going to talk about it.

That discussing what you asked to discuss is "throwing it back in your face" is... An impossible standard. It's like saying "Let's talk about traffic lights... How DARE you talk about traffic lights?!?"

***

- go diminish somebody else's issues..

Having 4 distortions in play, instead of 1 is the opposite of diminishing.

IMO, you have 3 propping up 1, or I wouldn't have brought them up.

___________________

As always, the views expressed in the above statements & opinions are my own. Reference above statement about opinions, if needed, & take what you like / discard the rest. ;) All my best

 

[shimmerz]

because it's also just language

It is just language but language, if I am reading this correctly, can seriously mess with a person's life. Should's all the time add anxiety. Calling oneself an idiot all of the time warps and diminishes one's accomplishments. Obsessing and glossing over with pretty language within a relationship rather than letting it flow the way it does (avoiding conflict etc) are just a few things that come to mind. They come to mind, actually, because they are challenges of mine. ;-)

Distortions come & go.

That is an excellent reminder. Sorry to hear you had a sleep day Friday. Unless, of course, you like those.

That may well not be a cognitive distortion at all!

Yes. This. ^^^^ It can very well be reality. Although I prefer the idea of removing the terms 'everyone' and 'everybody'. This is a cue for me that I am thinking in general terms. That usually doesn't work out well for anyone involved.

Needs more investigation. I'm not going to tell someone they're wrong, when I have no idea if they are.

Respectful. Responsible.

 

[joeylittle]

It is just language but language, if I am reading this correctly, can seriously mess with a person's life.

Yes - I used the wrong word. I should have said it is 'also purely language' - meaning that, I can work on my language that reinforces my own distortions/negative core beliefs without needing to work on the source material (the trauma) at the same time.

Of course, one will always have to face the trauma - but working on habitual language is in its own way pretty simple - not always easy, but simple.

 

[Friday]

@joeylittle ... I like replacing should with shall. Cuts through a lot of the BS.

I can tell myself I should kill myself, but replacing it with shall? Changes the ball-game. From judgment to action. Whether I should or not, I shall not.

I should clean my house. Judgement. I shall clean my house. Yes. It will happen. LOL. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday. Maybe even soon. Time does not bind it. It is purely a statement of intent.

Shall predicts the future, without constraining it. It's neither tied up in judgement, nor value, nor time. It's a neat, clean word.


“The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.” - Mark Twain

 

[Eleanor]

Didn't read the whole thread. I am just responding to the question about "shoulds." (Putting on professorial hat)

"Should" indicates a statement in the prescriptive mode. Thus whatever follows the "should" is prescription based on a prior evaluation. Prescriptions/evaluations always presume and END or GOAL to be achieved, or a PRINCIPLE or RULE to be followed. Thus "shoulds" are always the result of some prior practical or moral (or both) judgment on the part of the utterer.

So far so good?

People are often total assholes about "shoulds." That is to say, if a person is operating from an habitually self-centered perspective all their "shoulds" are premised on what works for them, or is in their exclusive personal interest. This might actually be a pretty good definition of what it is to "be an asshole."

From a more positive angle, "should" can be an offer of help. If I want to get from here to the airport, a friend who holds my interests dear might tell me I "should" drive instead of taking public transport because it is both cheaper and faster, and by the way there is a shortcut I should know about. This "should" is pragmatic - but notice it assumes that I value my time and money. Not unreasonable assumptions, but worth making explicit to understand the evaluation.

"Should" can also indicate a moral judgement. Properly moral judgments take EVERYONE's interests into account. This is a tricky thing to do as it will muddle our levels of analysis (from individual, to small group, to social, to global..) pretty quickly if we are not careful. Worked out moral principles mostly prescribe how we should do whatever, and not so much what we should do, except in a very general way. So they are a good starting place to figure out a practical solution (if being moral is on one's agenda.) For example: What do I do about my sister in law's neglect of her younger son's bad eating habits? I don't know. But starting from moral premises I do know that whatever I do I have to tell the truth (though it is up in the air which truths I will tell and how I will communicate them) and that I have to take everyone's interests into account, and be compassionate.

Lots of people misuse moral principles terribly - as bludgeons against others - which is really totally antithetical to their purpose and probably contradicts their substance.

So if you want my advice, I'd start writing down a bunch of those should statements and then figuring out which kinds they are, and what the goals and values they are based on are. THEN sort out which goals and values are ones you subscribe to (and it will become pretty clear who has which goals and values) and then consider the ones you can agree with and write off the ones that are oriented toward a future you don't care to pursue.

As a professional moral philosopher I can tell you that if you are in a community of people who have given you the idea that YOU as an adult are good or bad based on your simply conforming to their ideas - that you will need to be pretty cautious about accepting their ideas. At the same time, there may be some good practical advice/sense in the pile of stuff, so there is always the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater." Hence my advice to take the statements one at a time. Tedious - but you don't want to be discouraged from, say, brushing your teeth (which is a good thing to do if you want to keep them...) simply because someone objectionable in most other ways says that it is a thing most people "should" do.

Hope that helps...

Cognitive distortions are tricky things to unravel and make this process more difficult - I find this group way more adept than most at spotting them and so it is a good resource for "checking" whether one is in the grip of them.

@Mallaky just scanned thru the thread and hear that you are in a different place. So to the bit of you that was thinking that (and I'm glad that bit felt like posting here was possible and a good idea) Persons each have their own "necessities" - and those are important - and the ones that don't involve harm to others or self can be embraced. The challenge in this life is to figure out how to coordinate the pursuit of our necessities with the necessities of others. Some people are a lot easier to coordinate with than others, and sometimes we are the difficult ones. It is most often helpful to be kind and patient in both cases. To ourselves (not saying we are "Bad People") and to others.

 

[Mallaky]

Hey all. Thanks for all the posts. Sorry I could not respond earlier, but I am having very difficult time concentrating and being calm last days. Lets see how this goes! There is so much to say here, I cant possibly respond to it all now.

@Kefira, thanks for the kind words. They are very appreciated. Just one thing: That "stupid" line made me smile, and I like to use humour to help cope with things. I am convinced it is very valuable and if it makes me laugh the only fault with it can be, that I did not mark it as humour well enough, or that it offended. That is a pretty common issue here I feel. Have seen alot how a humurous line has been seen as a problematic statement. If only distorted thoughts would only ever manifest as humour, that is where they belong.

@shimmerz and @Saetva Beautifully put! Very helpfull thoughts. I always have a much easier time with the more-I dunno- poetic? emotional? evocative? usage of words. The more factual, objective, mathemtical style is mostly of little use for my understanding of things. It often fails to connect to my reality. So, thank you!

@Cashew Your post was fascinating to me. I had to think about it alot, and why I felt it was interesting but also felt of little use to me right now. And then I think I got it: That post is for a future me. I am not there yet. I first have to learn to just even notice the shoulds before I can work on reframing anything. I rarely do. And then, every once in a while, after not having noticed for so long, I suddenly feel absolutely trapped and buried. Rereading the opening post, now after having found this thought, I think this is the source for my confusion.

@joeylittle I love the linguistic approach, but I very often dont percieve myself as thinking in words. On one hand, its amazing advice. On the other hand, when I am so calm that I percieve myself as thinking in words I am mostly doing okay anyway. Does this then lead to the suggestion that I shoul...OH DEAR! :roflmao: that I can use it as a tool when I am having a bad time? Now, thinking of it, that sounds like a skill learned in therapy. Is that the case? I am still looking for a therapist. This is leading in a great direction.... Then again I reacted to the post that angered me in words and it did not help. But I see already, that was reacting with words, instead of looking inward with words. I love this :woot: I feel ive learned something important right now. I will have to think about this some more. It seems a bit like the beginning of CBT, right?

@JustBe You made my skin crawl! :eek: Probably by accident: I love the Mass Effect game series, and a big part of it is the concept of Indoctrination. The evil eldritch beings in that universe can use it to slowly drive people insane, undermine their sanity and in the end make them soulless drones or even worse things. It is portrayed as absolutely horrible and nightmare inducing. Think H.P. Lovecraft style. I love having made this connection. Now thinking about my rage post, and that extreme violent rage was a symptom in that universe :eek: brrrrrr....

@FridayJones: Thanks for the long post. I cannot really respond to any of it, as trying to read it gives me the creeps. There is a wierd dissonance happening, seeing you giving a detailed and thought out response to something I have written, that I cannot remember writing, and that I disagree myself with. It is a very surreal feeling, and I cant really process it. Truth to be told, its horrifying but I try not to be a baby about it. :D If I try to read it as if my part had been written by another person, I only get the feeling that an expert is talking to somebody who has a very superficial view of the topic. But, as said, I cannot really think about it, its mind melting. Sorry! I plan to revisit it in a few days, and see what happens.
Interestingly, I cant see how replacing "should" with "shall" could work in german. I dont think its possible. But surely there must a be a similar work aroud, but cant think of one right now.

@Eleanor Your post made me notice that in the past I very often told people what they should do. Maaany years ago somebody told me he doesnt want me to tell him what he should do. I did not understand it at all. Because of the intensity of his reaction it always stuck in my mind. I thought he was totally insane and living in some kind fairy world. Everything is about the "shoulds" I thought! This is so fascinating. Shows how ingrained this thinking is to me. No wonder its all very confusing to me.
But even more: I did not realize, until this very moment, that I was a

total assholes

that day. That is a very refreshing apporach to me. Trying to stop being an asshole about the shoulds and shoudnts feels so much better then "fighting the destructive cognitive distortions learned by a traumatic life". :roflmao:
My fuel is running out now, so I cannot give your fascinating post the reaction it deserves but I will revisit!


One issue that makes complicated matters worse for me, is that I am borderline multiple. During times of stress or anxiety, and sometimes even without it, I can switch through widly varying- what I call- personality states. Dissociative identity style, but less extreme. Every symptom is there, but weakened.
What that means for working on cognitive distortions I dont really know. Heck, I dont even know what it means for non-distored thinking. I hope my search for a therapist is ending soon, because that is something I dont think I can tackle without professionell help. :)shifty: This smiley goes to all therapists who cancel one day before the first meeting because "I did not plan my time well." after a 6 month wait. :shifty: )

A million thanks to you all! Your support is blowing me away.

 

[Ronin]

@Mallaky, if I may, please be gentle with yourself about this?

I mean, I get the horror behind not recognizing oneself & posts and confusion and the like but it really may be 'just' the subject matter.

What we're talking here is fairly meta, thinking about how we're thinking, and it's abstract enough even if one wasn't discussing negative thinking... much less negative thinking entwined with Soo Many Thiings in life.

The whole thing is big, of course it feels complex. It is.

 

[joeylittle]

Does this then lead to the suggestion that I shoul...OH DEAR! :roflmao: that I can use it as a tool when I am having a bad time?... It seems a bit like the beginning of CBT, right?

Ding ding ding! Yes, exactly.

I'd not worry about your other ways of being too much (the borderline dissociative part) - because any one of those ways of being can choose to recognize their words and change them to something with less judgement, something more like a 'shall' or a 'will'.

Honestly and truly, it's just practice. At first you'll get about 1/100th of them. But eventually, it becomes very routine, it really does. Just like learning any new skill - and although it might seem not the same, because it's words, it's thoughts, they aren't 'tangible' - compare it to learning a piece of music on an instrument. While yes, the sound is only air, the things that need to happen in order to make the sound are all very physical, real, things you can practice and get better at.

It will put you that much further along when you start therapy, and will also give you some real relief in the meantime.