News Doctor-Assisted Death For Those Living With Ptsd

[Justmehere]

People have the option of taking their own life without the state sanctioning it already. Let’s be real, if someone is determined to die, they can indeed do that without doctor assistance. So the choice of death is already there. It should be a hard choice to make and NOT supported by the government.

I have a very hard time with the idea of anyone advocating for doctors to kill my friends without homes that have PTSD.

I completely disagree with any suggestion by anyone that their lives are not worth living just because it’s painful, and that a doc (which would have to be state sponsored in the case of the homeless) should provide the option of helping them die.

If society goes down that road... and next up: which other undesirables who don’t have lives worth living should the state take out?

It’s all so wrong.

Even in the US, where yes, being homeless is illegal in many areas, homeless folks do have options. Are they good ones? No. Do they always work? No. Do all of them choose to seek those options to get off the streets? No. Are such options available to all the homeless? No.

So now the state (government) should consider making it ok to get a doc to help them die?

I can’t imagine ever encouraging those living on the streets of my own freezing city to connect to a doctor to help them die.

I was homeless for a time, and ya know what? It was awful. Hellishly painful. I was suicidal.

My life was still worth living. Despite how suicidal I was, I would have been devastated if anyone suggested to me that I could get a doctor to help me die.

The state should not be investing in death. They should be invested in help and health.

Doctor assisted suicide is not easy to do even when it’s legal. Very few doctors will even do it in places where it is legal because it goes against everything they were trained to do.

There are better options. Considering doctor assisted death as an option is a distraction from better options.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

If society goes down that road... and next up: which other undesirables who don’t have lives worth living should the state take out?

Yep this whole thing really scares me because I agree with this, the government has an agenda and a plan in the hands of the worst people I think

The state should not be investing in death. They should be invested in help and health.

I so wish.

There are better options. Considering doctor assisted death as an option is a distraction from better options.

I so agree with you here as well. We all need better options in our lives that offers some good and real hope.

 

[Tinyflame]

As @shimmerz said it sounds like it's quite a bit different in Canada.

I may be wrong, but I believe one of the current requirements is ~ a reasonably foreseeable death, which physicians have balked is unclear, undeterminable and vague. And irremediable pain/ suffering. Two committees have been formed to study minors, and those with mental health issues, including advance directives for those with Alzheimer's disease, to submit reports back (not recommendations) by the end of this year..

The individual involved in the original Supreme Court decision that ruled for them ironically would not qualify (I believe they had Stenosis.)

Here, it is joked about that everyone knows the poor with mental health issues especially, do without and end up in prison or homeless; the rich go to 'a spa' or rehab.

I would wonder if many with ptsd and homeless, are homeless because they can't work?

Much like a 2 week stay in a psych ward for suicidal ideation, to come back to potentially no work and no where to live, in pretty short haste.

Here health professionals are by law protected to abstain; many health professionals feel it's quite a service they are offering and are willingly engaged. The government here is expressing the view of the vast majority.

One thing I've found for my own family and comparable stories across the board, you will never have to fight to get them to knock off someone early who is terminal (and not expressing unbearable pain)- that's been going on for decades. You will likely have to fight to not allow it, in most hospital settings. It's a common theme. Even DNAR's (Do Not Attempt Resuscitation , only I believe 1 of 4 includes pain alleviation treatments for unrelated issues, eg the person breaks their arm; if you break your arm and have one of the other 3, they do not look at it.)

There is I believe a Vulnerable Persons' Act that includes mentally challenged or vulnerable, I believe it includes those deemed to be 'depressed', I think protecting the former, children etc- absolutely. But my right to choose should be my right, or others'. I/ they are good enough to work and provide services- care for other's parents, land that flight to get one to their destination, handle their medical emergencies, provide what fills 'their' lives and needs.. but not be 'capable' of choosing for one's own self? Rubbish.

Considering doctor assisted death as an option is a distraction from better options.

I agree. And it's bottom-line money saver, and fed by fear, greed and self IMHO.

There are better options.

But, like what? I've heard it said, 'what is needed is assistance in loving, assistance in living'. And it is because 'the ill, physically or mentally, feel they are not worth the same as those who are healthy'. That is because we- at least myself- am not. Is it too much to ask, like Oregon, who gives the drugs and lets you decide for yourself if and when? Half of those people change their mind apparently (on their own). Maybe for those who have someone who cares it opens up a dialogue, or leads to resources? Surely it's better than someone ending up in a river worrying some kid is going to find a rotten body on a shoreline one day. :(

Personally, if it was my loved one or spouse, they wouldn't have to worry or wonder if I'd be there for their care or needs, til whenever they died. For myself? I have none of those options. Who is anyone else to take even that option from me, if I qualified, and call it 'protection' or kindness?

ETA, for those who recommend Hospice care- which is great and I'm all for and has a great reputation here- one must be deemed as having 6 months or less to live to be designated as Palliative; if you go to a Hospice here they will tell you you can't apply, because the waiting list is over 2 years. If you beat the odds, and last longer, as my aunt did, you still can't get a spot because- lo- you're not on the waiting list! If you do not die immediately when you go in to the hospital, you must go home and if not possible to a personal care home (whatever is available, which is not much, or pay from 40-180$/ day, to wait for 'your choice'). And planned death at home doesn't work for all people. And myself doing palliative caregiving/ planned death at home, I'd recommend the last few days or so in a hospital, myself, tbh.

 

[shimmerz]

People have the option of taking their own life without the state sanctioning it already.

There is a difference though. A vast difference. If one commits suicide, one can't prepare others. If one does, then they are committed. And that is the way it has to go right now. Anyone I confide in if I have plans to suicide are morally obligated to interfere.

A planned euthanasia would allow me to prepare my loved ones. They would have the option to 'weigh in'. That may just change my mind. But with suicide being this 'dirty little (eh, maybe big) secret, there is no closure. Not for anyone.

And honestly, with the system I have to live with being able to allow people to literally freeze to death on the streets, I would prefer that it be a true and honest conversation with all stakeholders (society). I know that the general consensus is that Canada takes care of their homeless, mentally ill, war vets. That's a big fat lie. And if it takes some activism to bring out the truth of the matter then I am going to say that in the end.... the general populace knowing what is actually happening to people rather than this fairy tale hogwash that is being served up here, that truth coming to light may change a system that, at its very core is corrupt, misguided, misinformed, horribly ineffective.

Acknowledgement means working with facts and truths. There is none of that in this country. I certainly have no plans to live a life full of pain and agony, to cover up a political agenda.

 

[Justmehere]

I have lost someone to a legal euthanasia for a terminal illness and someone to suicide. It was not any easier to lose someone to a planned euthanasia. Absolutely not.

I also lost someone to a passive suicide who refused life saving care for a treatable illness, and we all had advance notice of their decision that would lead to their death. They felt their mental illness made it too hard to live and they were ready for the treatable medical illness to kill them.

It has been hellishly hard to work through the grief and confusion and pain that they made the choice to die.

I’ve been suicidal, and I have no judgement for those who have been in that place.

It’s not doing society any favors whatsoever for society to have a heads up on those who will be killed because their lives have been deemed not worth living.

 

[Cyberluddite]

I once saw the edge of death during an NDE, a few years back. After something like that, PTSD becomes a blessing.

This "solution" has been tried before. It went badly then, I can't see how it'd go any better now. Especially since the "mentally healthy" society we live in, here in America, treats everything as disposable.

If the lady wishes to go, I won't fight her decision. However, I would like to mention that while there are cookies on the other side... they're out of milk.

 

[joeylittle]

A planned euthanasia would allow me to prepare my loved ones. They would have the option to 'weigh in'. That may just change my mind. But with suicide being this 'dirty little (eh, maybe big) secret, there is no closure. Not for anyone.

While this might be good for you, it would be not-good for them. It would not be an option to weigh in, it would still be an emotionally driven plea for you to not give up. Only, possibly worse, because they have no recourse.

There is no easy way to separate the dead from the living. Whether death happens in an instant, at a time no-one expected, or whether it is protracted over years. The living do not leave their dead behind. When you die, you are over. They keep going. For the living, death is just part 1. They don't reach closure for quite awhile after the dying person dies.

I think it's fundamentally a fallacy that suicide could ever, ever be prepared for. Euthanasia isn't 'prepared for', either. It's just different.

I am not saying that either of them are wrong, or right, or ever justified, or never justified. I do think that it is more scientifically possible to make a determination about recovery, when the illness is more fully understood. To me, that's why mental illness is not ready for a euthanasia 'option'. Even approving euthanasia for the terminally ill, in those societies that do it, is an incredibly complex process.

If someone wants to take their own life, they will. They always have. They will tell people if they want, and they will find a way to do it. If they truly intend on succeeding, they will. Death is a simple thing. Not an easy thing - a simple thing. And yet...the human system is built to keep itself functioning. The body is so resilient, it can survive drowning. Freezing. Lack of air. The body fights as hard as it can. And that's got nothing to do with whether the person wants the death, or wants to live.

The only way I can reconcile the fact that human beings have survival instinct, and that humans can be subjected to so many horrible kinds of suffering, is: we are built to live. Whether we like it or not. As much as we may want death, we are wired to choose life.

And that instinct to survive is often the only thing that counterbalances the desire to die. The only thing standing between me and a completed suicide is, I know what happens (to me) when death is right there. When death is just, just right there. And that tug of war that kicks in, when the body fights back, is a kind of suffering that is terrifying, and painful, and....worse. It's worse. To me.

So - it's not fair. It really isn't. It's not fair that we have so many ways we are vulnerable to suffering - suffering in the mind, in the body, both. It f*cking sucks. It's cruel. It's perverse. Because we also have a million cylinders that, when faced with imminent extinction of the self, will fire at 1000%, just to keep us alive.

I know I could look at this the other way around. That those million cylinders are the gift. The thing that saves us from the suffering. And on days that aren't as bad as today, I can run that script in my head. I practice it, because on days like today, I don't believe it's a gift, I think it's the worst thing in the world.

But: isn't the fact that I can turn the paradigm . - even if I can't all the time, and even if it's more of an intellectual exercise than a belief - isn't that somehow, some kind of evidence that I'm probably not fully capable of 'deciding' that someone else should kill me, at my request?

There's probably a whole lot wrong with what I'm saying, and actually, I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything. Anyone who lives with chronic suicidal thinking has to come to terms with how they navigate the waters between the survival instinct, and the pain. Or rather, has to navigate those two cliffs nearly every day.

As far as society goes - society needs to get better, all the time. It needs to get better at helping it's members, at least as far as Maslowe's basics go: food, shelter, water, warmth. And me saying it needs to get better is really just a lot of hollow words. I know that. @shimmerz, I started with a quote from you, but I hope you know this post isn't directed at you. I'm springing off of a thought you shared, that's all.

It's hard stuff, life.

 

[shimmerz]

It’s not doing society any favors whatsoever for society to have a heads up on those who will be killed because their lives have been deemed not worth living.

This is where you and I differ in opinions. I think it is good for a society to have a heads up on what is actually driving these people to want to kill themselves. I believe (and have experienced) that what society has been brainwashed into believing is not at all the experience of those who suffer. I am so sick and tired of the dogma that says that those who suffer from PTSD are just a bunch of whiny babies who need to grow up and be responsible. That needs to change. If the truth of the matter is put up for all to see perhaps it will spur the politicians to actually put services into place that are effective and not soul crushing, degrading and unattainable.

I want to state as well that I understand the state vs people issue. I also believe, having tried desperately to kick and claw my way out of this sham of a 'state run social system' to no avail without serious, heavy duty support from people not in my situation (who have money), that state vs people is exactly what is happening today. You just don't know it unless you are in it. And you don't get out of it because the state doesn't want empowered people to know that their tax dollars are not helping the poor in any way that is helpful to the poor.

Only, possibly worse, because they have no recourse.

Sure they do. To support me in my choice. It sure beats someone finding me hanging in the closet unexpectedly, does it not?

I appreciate the debate. I was heavily invested in this euthanasia thing for myself not that long ago. Oh, and I do believe because I had completely given up (and talked to nobody about my plans), by all intents and purposes, that people started to take seriously what was happening to me and helped to change my reality.

 

[Justmehere]

To support me in my choice. It sure beats someone finding me hanging in the closet unexpectedly, does it not?

No it doesn’t actually make it any better. It really doesn’t. I have sat there with a friend telling me they are set, mind made up, they are making the choice to die. It felt so awful. Terrible. Heart wrenching. It haunts me to this day. I struggle with guilt over it very deeply.

I struggle with that planned death much more than the “unexpected” suicide. There is no preparation that makes it ok for the survivors. It is not better or easier. It’s different, but not better.

This is spot on:

While this might be good for you, it would be not-good for them. It would not be an option to weigh in, it would still be an emotionally driven plea for you to not give up. Only, possibly worse, because they have no recourse.

I do agree with you here:

I think it is good for a society to have a heads up on what is actually driving these people to want to kill themselves

Yes! It is a good goal for society to find out what is driving people to want to kill themselves.

But to carry out self murder in order to get attention to a cause? On the most basic and practical level, that’s ineffective. And if the state (government) is supporting it, there will be even less of a chance that anyone will try to figure out why... because if the government is sanctioning it as ok, and a doctor assisted in it happening, then it’s no longer a problem to be solved. Death would be considered to be the solution to that pain.

None of those I know that have died from pre-planned, passive, or “unexpected” suicide had their pain better heard because they made the choice to die. Society doesn’t better understand their pain one bit. Heck even close family and friends don’t understand it better because they are now dead. I watched people shut down to understanding it because they were so overwhelmed by the pain of the death. The larger community totally misunderstood it, at best. Those that were in pain that could correct them are now gone.

The moment death shows up in the conversation, the general population usually gets anxious and shuts down to really hearing someone.

You know what does change society? Speaking out. Advocacy. Letting one’s voice be heard. Etc.

Again, I don’t judge anyone who chooses death via any form of suicide. I have planned my own suicide in the past.

What I do disagree with is the thinking that pre-planning makes it easier for the survivors. I also disagree with the idea that government approval and doctor assistance in suicide would help society better understand why people want to die.

I think it’s very dangerous to go down this road because people would be less likely to care why people make that choice, and society would be less likely to address the problems that would send someone to a doc. They would see death as the solution.

 

[shimmerz]

What I do disagree with is the thinking that pre-planning makes it easier for the survivors.

I am not firmly invested in what makes it easier for the survivors. I mean, death is death; and death is hard. Like you said, doesn't matter how it happens. I do still, however, feel that if we have the right to pay taxes all of our lives, that we should be allowed to have a choice on how we want to exit. I understand that you have personal experiences that make that an unhappy alternative, but I watched my father die for 7 years. So my experiences have me coming from a different angle than you. He should have been allowed to die if he wanted to. The suffering was absolutely pointless. Unless he had wanted to hold on as he was forced to do.

I am all about giving people choices. Now.... if SI is a symptom or addictive behaviour and needs to be addressed (like an addiction to painkillers needs attention when one is in pain). I have no idea the intricacies of this all when drilling down into it, but on a foundational level I believe that we should be able to decide when we have had enough.

Death would be considered to be the solution to that pain.

Yeah, I am going to have to think about this one in more detail. I will say, however, that it beats the plan here of 'let's let the mentally ill freeze to death on the street and nobody will be the wiser'. Then the person dying has ABSOLUTELY no say in whether he lives or dies. That person may not have even wanted to die.

Let me be very clear. I have never had a problem with suicidal behaviour. Not until I knew I was staring at yet another winter on the streets. It was the very 'government aid to help the homeless, jobless, yadda, yadda, yadda' that drove me to want to die. The complete hopelessness of getting off the system. People who were not on the system that felt that I was some sort of crazy person and that I wasn't getting my shit together. It was all too much and retraumatizing me. When a system presented as being helpful is disempowering and worse, as this one is, well, I absolutely stand my ground and say that I want the right to say 'that's enough'. I have no intention of being traumatized over and over and over again because the system to 'help' is actually hurting.

Not sure how that is better than a 'right to die' model.

 

[Cyberluddite]

But: isn't the fact that I can turn the paradigm . - even if I can't all the time, and even if it's more of an intellectual exercise than a belief - isn't that somehow, some kind of evidence that I'm probably not fully capable of 'deciding' that someone else should kill me, at my request?

That's part of "as it harm none, do as ye will", yes. Although humans are notorious for violent behavior, violence (much like deciding who should die and why) is a conscious choice. Empathy and love are instinctive affects of life, and it's not limited to humans.

The indomitable spirit of our species, and it's survival, is probably one of our best (and mercurial) qualities.

I struggle with that planned death much more than the “unexpected” suicide. There is no preparation that makes it ok for the survivors. It is not better or easier. It's different but not better.

Nobody's ever been fond of cleaning up other people's messes, and while "planned death" is just a marketable form of suicide (talk about "blood money!") neither one has a "better". There is no "win" for anyone, regardless of whom, how, or why. Except for Death and lawyers, maybe.

The causes behind society's death fetishization isn't just one or two factors, and it has nothing to do with gods or demons. It's a perfect storm, one that was warned about during the early part of the Industrial Revolution (and the first half of the 20th Century).

Although the causes are many, it all comes down to a person's need to be productive. To do something to contribute, to matter, to have a purpose to wake up to every morning. Take away a man's purpose, give him a world of convenience, and you'll soon understand why a caged bird sings.

While I was homeless a few years back, I learned a lot about how society treats it's most vulnerable. One of those lessons was "the homeless don't deserve electricity, because they don't generate tax revenue."

Long story for another time, but purpose gave other homeless people the will to live that night, in the form of a fresh-brewed pot of coffee that was able to pay for my breakfast the next morning.

Gonna sign off now, before I get more rambly, but nobody ever thinks to ask the "suffering" if they're actually as bad off as they look. And even if people do ask, they never seem to listen. The concept of someone actually dealing with battles everyday, unimaginably greater than the incredibly simpler ones we face, is one of the most dangerous threats to our own egocentric worldviews.

I never had time to sit and pity myself. But that, as well as risking a few nights in jail for that pot of coffee, is a choice every person makes. :hug:

You cannot kill anyone, even yourself, with life.

 

[Gs172003]

There is a difference though. A vast difference. If one commits suicide, one can't prepare others....

I don't care how you sugar coat it. Suicide will not bring closure to your loved ones whether they know it's coming or not. They will ALWAYS think it is their fault. Always.