Does Being Here Make Us Forget What "normal" Really Is?

[Abstract]

Stenni,
I too think you raised a good point. To be clear (correct me if I am wrong) I think what you are discussing here has nothing to do with this forum specifically and is to do with support of this type in general. Apparently there are risks that can arise and I think a lot of that is do with where the person is starting from (what their natural tendencies are) and what other influences they have in their lives.

And I think you will be just fine as you are obviously self aware!

For me trauma and everything that goes with it is still something that I reject if not checked. Separation from it is my default mode and so I don't think it will have that affect with me.

Speaking generally here, I think the biggest risks come if someone is already very entrenched in trauma as an identity or if they have a past pattern or personality tendency to regress and rely totally on others. There is nothing better or worse in that than those who are over self reliant as a default but there are different considerations involved. It is only a problem if it results in the person needing to stay sick or if it dampens the desire to change and get better. Some will find it greatly motivates them to move forward and it fuels their desire to get better.

I see the risks as:
* Being consumed by trauma as an identity.
* Forgetting what healthy looks like.
* Getting drawn into a regressed state by having the care of others that elicits a "sick role" in order to get the care they desire.
* Having ones needs for support met and therefore isolating from others in real life.
* Having enough support that one looses the impetus to get into therapy.
* Rejecting outside life because of the difficulties with people not understanding.
* Contagion by people adopting negative coping methods they see described.
* Getting stuck in a "carer" role in a way that causes one to stop healing or living fully.

There are so many possible benefits but just a few are:
* Shame reduction.
* Increased ability to ask others for help in real life.
* Increased understanding.
* Acceptance that comes with realising that the symptoms are normal reactions to certain circumstances.
* Feeling less pressure to have the outside world understand.
* Integrating the reality of the past and present into the bigger picture of ones life (including all non PTSD related areas).
* Often others with the same concerns can challenge us or guide us in a way that would feel threatening if it was anyone else. ect...etc...etc....

So I think this is like everything. Lots of potential good and some potential bad if it is not balanced out or if incorrectly used.

 

[WillyKat]

I don't think there's anything about being in the forum that slows down *my* desire for recovery.

First, what do we mean by "recovery"? Get over it? I don't know that there is such a thing. There is that whole victim to survivor process we're all in. And we're never going to erase what happened to us. Long term, I want to have friends and supporters that know my story.

 

[mamachick]

I think of recovery as the process of "getting better", or "improving the quality of life", or "maintaing stability", but it is making progress toward an increased sense of well being. There is no cure-there is no getting over it.

We have ptsd-we are not ptsd. I agree that it is so important to not allow it to define us.

We tend to avoid that which is uncomfortable and if the forum is the only place one feels comfortable and the symptoms are life consuming, it may be that some will feel more defined by trauma with or without the forum. The forum is wonderful and there is no criticism of the relationships or posts that I am hearing. Just as some people are more suggestable, or encouragable, some may gravitate toward on line groups that they affiliate with almost as an addiction. Although I do not think that was stenni's point, just an after thought. I am trying to recover yet at times I busy my mind to avoid feelings. (escape) There are many factors that may influence ones relationship with the forum, such as if they work, have a parter or supports, children, pets, have maintained interests, etc.

Many very good points made on this thread.

 

[Kintsugi]

I think normal is culturally defined, not psychologically, but in terms of what is and is not appropriate to say or share, I guess. It's not that the behavior is normal or shameless or acceptable, but it can or cannot be acceptable to share experiencing that behavior, thought, or feeling depending on who you're close to and the culture you've developed interpersonally.

That said, this discussion really makes me wonder about people who get PTSD after their formative years. It makes me think they had a culture before their trauma or the onset of their symptoms that is not compatible with sharing the products of PTSD without feeling fearful of the ensuing reaction. Others probably experience this too. I don't know. It's hard for me to grasp. I've almost always been in social groups that were fraught with diagnoses or broken families or repeat sexual abuse victims (survivors, whatever you like).

I guess I'm just saying no, I don't think it's the forum. I do think it's any group of people who identify with psychological or experiential abnormalities getting together and discussing those things openly. That definitely does normalize it, conversationally at least.

This thread has really gotten me thinking though. Should I feel like it's desirable to not feel comfortable sharing things that are maybe outside the experience of others? It feels more suppressive than healthy to me. But hey, I've always lived this way, so maybe I just don't get it yet or never will.

Am I totally missing the topic here? It's about losing touch with what is normal through existing often in the forum as evidenced by conversational sharing. Yeah?

Postscript: there was a time I thought my interactions with the community was starting to make some of my behaviors acceptable, or like there was something synergistic happening where one community member was fueling the other's instability with their comraderie. But that also happens outside the forum. I've seen through observing those I love with disorders that there are some relationships you can get involved with where no one is in any way offending the other party, but they make each other sicker and sicker. I've had this happen to me as well, but it wasn't quite clear at the time.

 

[Abstract]

Hi MissSunshine,

I am not sure if I understand correctly but it seems to me you are taking the comments on this thread as saying that people share too much or don;t feel ashamed enough. Or even that talking about behaviours and trauma is bad. I hope I am wrong because it would be awful if you felt that way. Maybe its normal for that to be a reaction when so many of us automatically feel such shame about speaking.

It is wonderful for us to share and comment and discuss both behaviours and trauma! Its what groups like this are all about and why they are so healing. Nothing in this conversation is about behaviours being shameful, shameless or not to be shared!

This certainly doesn't mean something is automatically bad for everyone; or anyone for that matter if handled well. And it also not (and should not be be) a judgement on anyone who does find they have any of these tendencies. Personally I think we should be compassionate to anyone who finds themselves doing so and is brave enough to speak about it.

As far as I understand it these things are also just well documented possible reactions people can have when exposed to group environments or even therapy for that matter. It doesn't mean group support or therapy is bad. Group support is amazingly healing and helpful as is therapy.

Without getting stuck in semantics I think "normal" here just means the type of behaviours and state of mind that we want to aim for even if we have never experienced it in our lives. For example a state where we are not self harming is something good to expect in our futures. Something taking away our feelings that our behaviour is bad or awful is wonderful and right. It is only a problem if that acceptance interferes with us wanting to change things or from seeing what we need to change or aim for. Noone is saying that will automatically happen. Just that it is a possibility.

Its not a black and white thing. Its a white situation where occasional tinges of grey may creep in and us just being aware of them can only be a good thing. It's just about being self aware and using tools as helpfully and effectively as possible.

It doesn't mean anyone should be doing anything differently unless they see any problem signs for themselves and I am sure there are always ways to manage them if there are. I imagine that self awareness is enough most of the time.

Personally the only risk I would have is getting too caught up in others problems and ignoring my own but that won't happen as I am aware of it.

 

[Hashi]

It's about losing touch with what is normal through existing often in the forum as evidenced by conversational sharing. Yeah?

It might be different things for different people. For me, it's about connecting with others over the worst places and struggles in the journey, and deeply appreciating that connection, being helped by it. Then recognising that while the forum is a wonderful, beneficial place for me at this point, I also want to move on to a place of less struggle when I can do that. So I need to be mindful that, while this level of struggle is "normal" for me at the moment, I don't want to make it my lifelong "normal".

I think by the nature of the forum, people who have moved on to other stages and fewer (or no) symptoms aren't so likely to be posting here. That's not a criticism of the forum, it's an observation of what the forum's about, in fact what the forum does so well. I see a future point where I'll need a peer group/support network that's more about being out in the world than dealing with symptoms, because my focus will need to be different then.

MissAntiSunshine, I wasn't sure what you meant about whether or not someone has a non-traumatised history before experiencing trauma and PTSD. I don't have a "before" and I think that does mean some differences in terms of healing, compared to someone who does have a stable "before". I don't see a difference in the ability to ultimately move forward in healing, only a difference in the form that might take.

 

[Hashi]

stenni, you've started a very interesting thread!

 

[Kintsugi]

Hi MissSunshine,

I am not sure if I understand correctly but it seems to me you are taking the comments on this thread as saying that people share too much or don;t feel ashamed enough. Or even that talking about behaviours and trauma is bad. I hope I am wrong because it would be awful if you felt that way. Maybe its normal for that to be a reaction when so many of us automatically feel such shame about speaking.

Oh dear. I communicated badly. I was trying to say, really, that I've always felt comfortable sharing with my friends, because my friends have a lot of crazy too, and I wonder if I did not just build a culture around myself of abnormal people. One of my best friends and I used to candidly talk about our history of interacting with pedophiles over dinner. My boyfriend and I used to joke that we wanted to go to Halloween parties as the mental illnesses of his parents (paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorder laden with phobias, respectively). This discussion caught me a little off guard simply because I think that I've usually existed within social groups that don't blink an eye at me when I share about my symptoms (the trauma itself can be too much for them, admittedly, since they may live with mental health issues but not necessarily trauma).

As far as I understand it these things are also just well documented possible reactions people can have when exposed to group environments or even therapy for that matter. It doesn't mean group support or therapy is bad. Group support is amazingly healing and helpful as is therapy.

This is definitely what I was trying to say. I think this is true of support groups and also true if like me you are essentially surrounded by people who see the byproducts of mental illness as everyday, the way you might find in support groups or patient care.

My end thesis is simply that if you don't have this kind of social culture, the social culture of the forum might be more alien, the openness of it all and the unabashedness of saying things not fit for the majority of social interactions.

It's funny, to me--when I'm outside that group of people who are open about these things, and someone asks me a question that might prompt me to discuss my relationship with my brother or my PTSD, I just say, "It's not dinner party conversation." That's sort of how I frame my separate social identity--the "real" Simon and dinner party banter Simon. I have "dinner party" friends, but I do feel they will never know me in a significant way, because if I'm close with you, then it means I should be able to call you and say, "Sorry I haven't been in touch. I fell down the rabbit hole of derealization and landed in Depressionville. Do you want to meet for coffee?"

Sooo... Yeah. I don't know what I'd do if I had a bunch of "dinner party" friends, then showed PTSD, and had to return to them, with the forum on the side. It seems like maybe this space is a bit more normal to me to begin with.

I hope that's clear. This topic feels slippery and amorphous.

 

[Abstract]

trying to say,

Oops! :oops: Thanks for explaining Misssunshine. Sorry to have misunderstood so badly.

Back to this comment

culture before their trauma or the onset of their symptoms that is not compatible with sharing the products of PTSD without feeling fearful of the ensuing reaction

I think there are other reasons why this happens. Some people can live in a state of denial their whole lives and others hide it their entire lives. I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong and different things are right for different people.

Should I feel like it's desirable to not feel comfortable sharing things that are maybe outside the experience of others? It feels more suppressive than healthy to me

I personally don't see this as being about it being bad to be comfortable with discussing things. As long as we still have a clear idea of what we are aiming for and are still actively moving to get better.

they will never know me in a significant way,

I am guessing we all feel like that actually.

also true if like me you are essentially surrounded by people

I think it can happen in many situations and is individual to the persons life and how it is set up. And how they react to it.


I also don't think that someones history of onset of symptoms is relevant in how they see recovery for themselves. I think there are some whose trauma is late and who still don't see a way out and there are others who don't remember a time before trauma who are very motivated and focused on a life after symptoms and mental health issues.

For some the fact that the illness is so much a part of their identity can be an obstacle and for others the denial that it is part of their present life and keeping it hidden can be an obstacle.

 

[Kintsugi]

Abstract, I love every bit of your post so much it would be silly to try and pull quotes out. I think you really hit the nail on the head in not only responding to my post but in drawing a conclusion out of my stumbling attempt to understand this discussion and its implications for me as well as bringing out the rich underlying individual circumstances that make this discussion so poignant and personal.

<3 A heart for your comments.

 

[Sandstone]

First, thank you for all the words of support.

I love the breadth and depth of discussion in many of the threads here, and this one has gone to fascinating places. I was once told that I'm a do-er not a thinker, so I'm going to take the benefits of your thoughts and apply them.

I think this is particularly true for those who use the forum in place of outside healthy relationships and socialization

I didn't necessarily interpret your post as suggesting that the forum specifically tended to promote a culture of "stuckness" when it comes to recovery, only that, by its very nature, it is defined by people who are struggling with the same impulses, urges, symptoms and behaviours that you are, and so inevitably this may "normalise" them to some degree in your mind.

I also belong to two real life groups that are based on an interest and nothing to do with PTSD or therapy - those really bring home to me how different the "non PTSD world" can be

For me, these are the major points to take on. I need to get out and see people. I haven't seen any of my friends for over two years now. Being able to do that looks a long way right now as going into my back garden alone is a challenge. But I have a plan to start attending the Mind day centre. It's still in the Mental Health world, but is a step back towards the real world.

getting too "comfortable", even with discomfort and struggle, is always going to be a risk for me

We have ptsd-we are not ptsd. I agree that it is so important to not allow it to define us.

I don't want PTSD to become a "hobby". So I shall try to apply myself to reading about stone mosaics, felting and cookery

what do we mean by "recovery"

I've been looking at http://www.outcomesstar.org.uk/star-guides. This is a tool for measuring where in the recovery journey you are in ten areas of life . It appeals to me because I like to quantify things,and because it is mapped in a way that shows life getting bigger as you progress.

For me, seeing the number of steps and the relative slowness of progress through them is encouraging. It helps to avoid the feeling that I have failed utterly if I don't move instantly from my current defeat t total independence and success.

It charts the steps on the ladder of change as being

Stuck

1 ... not interested in thinking about or discussing ... our lives... far from achieving our full potential and may be causing harm to ourselves or others,... cut off and ... unwilling to talk

2 As 1 except with moments of feeling fed up with how things are. ... but the feeling may be fleeting and we won’t engage with support


Accepting help

3 ... we really want things to be different. Change may seem impossible or frightening ... we will meet workers or others offering help and accept their help ... though our willingness or ability to do this may come and go.

4 As 3 but engaging with support in a fairly consistent way, ... we do not take the initiative and rely on others for change...


Believing

5 ... the point of really believing that things could be different ... a sense of ... what we are moving towards as well as what we are moving away from. We can see that change won’t happen unless we help to make it happen. ...

6 ... putting this belief into action by doing things differently in the world. We are experimenting, trying out new ways of doing things. Sometimes things work, sometimes they don’t, so ... we need a lot of support to ride the highs and lows and keep the belief going.


Learning

7 ... a sense of what works for us in moving towards our goal ... helps to strengthen our belief in ourselves and our ability to achieve our goals ... we start to become more consistent in doing things that are helpful for our journey ... we ... still need quite a lot of support to keep things going and without it setbacks can knock us off course.

8 By this stage we have effectively achieved the outcome in this area of our lives but still need regular, on-going support ... to keep it going.


Self-reliance

9 ... Our new ways of doing things ... are now quite well established and feel more natural or automatic. ... at times of crisis, we are vulnerable to slipping back ... it can be helpful to have someone who ... helps us to recognise the danger signs and take action when necessary.

10 We have no issues in this area and behave in ways that work well for us and those around us. Our support needs are met by friends, family and/or generic community services. We know when we need more support and how to get it.

 

[Kintsugi]

LOVE this progression map Stenni! Thank you.