Exposure Therapy Less Effective For Shame Based Responses To Trauma?

[shimmerz]

Vulnerability and Shame. Brene Brown

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame

 

[Eleanor]

@scout86 thank you for your post above. I think it was the last little bit I needed to help break up a logjam in my understanding of my H.

 

[scout86]

@Eleanor , you're welcome. I think? What did I say?

 

[Eleanor]

You said that you acted in a way that demonstrated FEAR when your T said "You LOVE them." The major difficulty right now with my H (now that we have worked through a million other things...) is that when his brain goes into PANIC he appears angry to me - and I get defensive and he takes that badly and.... well it is not pretty. Anyhow I hadn't put it together that it is not just PANIC he is in it is FEAR too - which is flight (like you did) and freeze, but can also (thank you Konrad Lorenz) manifest as aggression - the evolutionary purpose of which is to prevent violence. So his brain gets hijacked by PANIC and FEAR together. And indeed this worked for him because once he got big enough he fought back against his mother (took the shovel she was attacking him with out of her hands and broke the handle) and she never hit him again. A powerful one shot learning experience. But one that has created problems for us now. Because the driving force is PANIC and the need for attachment - BUT since FEAR is always along for the ride it gets expressed as aggression and... as aggression does... both perceives every approach I make as more aggression back and then drives me away. Because FEAR doesn't make distinctions. FEAR takes all appearances as reality. FEAR's job is to keep you alive, and it brooks no argument from System 2 rationality, if it looks scary, it IS a threat. Anyhow, I hadn't quite put together that FEAR was so much a part of the picture - because it looked to me like anger/RAGE. Which, of course, is the whole point of FEAR based aggression, to scare the threat away. And, as Pencil once pointed out, having your mother, who is supposed to protect you from the wolf at the door, actually BE the WOLF really screws everything up. And my H's mother was for sure the wolf.

So the upshot for me is that unless and until we can figure out a way to get his brain to stop having these attacks of PANIC/FEAR there is literally NOTHING I can do, no intervention, no comfort, no approach I can make that will not be interpreted as aggression. Which is terribly discouraging and kind of a relief at the same time.

It also makes clear my own issues with trying to solve everything rationally - and also my compulsive need to be SEEN and understood correctly, which kicks in and makes me defensive and talk and talk and that just makes everything WORSE.

And it is clear that he CANNOT SEE (literally) emotional pain (at least in my daughter and I) if HE has caused it. His brain goes immediately into PANIC/FEAR and... off we go.

I spent a bunch of yesterday going through Serbern Fischer's stuff... wow. She's got the line on developmental trauma. Of course I USED to live close to Northhampton where she practices... but now I live all the way on the other side of the country... Sigh. I suspect she could "cure" my ADHD... I watched this video - which is not dynamic but OMG how helpful...

 

[scout86]

@Eleanor , thank you for that! I need to think on it more and watch the video. Right now, I need to drag myself out of what I've come to think of as "Shimmerzville" and get to work so I don't have a string of unhappy people waiting for me.

having your mother, who is supposed to protect you from the wolf at the door, actually BE the WOLF really screws everything up.

Mine too. I only figured that out last fall, so there's tons of stuff to explore and sort through.

Any thoughts on why "love" is a threat? Because, on the one hand it makes no sense. On the other, it's very real. If we were going to play "word association" and you said "I love you" the phrase that leaps to mind in response is "please don't hurt me". I have NO idea why. No history of physical abuse at all, as far as I know.

BTW, things didn't escalate because my T froze and waited for me. If he had moved in any direction, things would have taken a different turn. WHAT turn would have depended on what he did. If he had reached out to touch my arm, which some might have interpreted as a gesture of support and comfort, I might have swung at him. If he had moved towards me, I might have headed for the door. As it was, he froze and waited. When it became obvious that I was waiting to see what he was going to do, he changed the subject and acted like nothing had happened. If we were to work on this now, I think the first step would be to talk about what was going on. If I KNOW I'm reacting to something that happened "over there, back then" as he likes to put it, I can work with it. Might be messy, but it's possible.

What would happen, when he "appears angry", if you asked "Are you angry with me?" Would it help to begin the communication process at what might seem like a ridiculously basic level, just to be 100% sure all involved are on the same page?

 

[Eleanor]

Any thoughts on why "love" is a threat?

In his case it is pretty clear because his mother and his father both physically abused him. His mother emotionally and verbally abused him and trained him to serious co-dependence which lasted until she died. Love = mother?

What would happen, when he "appears angry", if you asked "Are you angry with me?"

I have taken to doing this - and ordinarily he is not. It does help him to "say it out loud" to moderate his emotions. If he IS upset with me, there isn't ordinarily much i can do tho... When I ask, "What can I do to make this better?" I know he is "in it" if he cannot think of anything, or goes into "Its too late..."

The freeze thing is interesting.. I think it is worth me trying NOT doing... anything. for a while and then changing the subject... I haven't done that yet anyhow...

 

[DogwoodTree]

If we were going to play "word association" and you said "I love you" the phrase that leaps to mind in response is "please don't hurt me". I have NO idea why.

I don't think physical abuse is the only thing that could cause this kind of reaction. Emotional abuse is just as likely, if not more so. I wasn't physically abused, either, but when someone says "I love you", I immediately think, "What are you trying to get from me?"...or "What awful thing have I done now?" (even though I was a good kid, even a good teenager!, and I'm still a good person who doesn't intentionally hurt anyone).

For me, "loving" has always been a bargaining chip to get something, or a way to passively aggressively blame one person for someone else's problem or mistake. I can't think of anyone from my childhood who valued me for the unique person that I am, although they would compliment me for the good ways in which I was like them. A compliment always meant, "This is awesome about you because it's like me."

 

[Valentino]

So the upshot for me is that unless and until we can figure out a way to get his brain to stop having these attacks of PANIC/FEAR there is literally NOTHING I can do, no intervention, no comfort, no approach I can make that will not be interpreted as aggression. Which is terribly discouraging and kind of a relief at the same time.

It also makes clear my own issues with trying to solve everything rationally - and also my compulsive need to be SEEN and understood correctly, which kicks in and makes me defensive and talk and talk and that just makes everything WORSE.

I wonder if at the level of raw emotions, both of you are feeling similar emotional pain, but simply with different stories?

When you feel helpless and confused in response to his FEAR/PANIC triggered RAGE outburst, aren't you feeling raw FEAR also?
When you feel urgency to fix things rationally and talk things out, isn't that driven by PANIC (Separation Anxiety) circuits? When you want to prioritize your NEED to be SEEN and understood, along with defensiveness, isn't that driven by your RAGE circuits by your aggressiveness to defend your boundaries and communicate your needs?

Raw emotions are tricky, especially with poorly defined and recognized boundaries. The sheer emotional pain gets shared and merged with very quickly, which in itself can be shocking and overwhelming, then survival instincts kick in with Fight or Flight re-activity, turning on RAGE and PANIC/GRIEF circuits. Then the mind comes in and tries to rationalize a story to match these intense emotional feelings and attached memories.

Recognizing that everyone involved is hurt and sharing in emotional pain is a start towards connecting with our shared humanity. Which can open the door for compassion and patience, connecting to deeper values and meaning, which helps with integrating and healing those wounds.

My method involved getting better at staying conscious with raw emotional pain and going deeper. But I think my Aspie brain wiring probably gave me this unusually high natural obsessive capacity. I found Dr. Steven Stosny's work from one of your earlier references, and I think his method is extremely practical at dealing with raw anger. The focus about the strength within self-compassion and accessing deeper core values seems to be very good foundational pointers to build from within.

This is an excerpt from his psychology today blog describing his way out:

A distressed or misbehaving child can make parents feel like they are inadequate and failing. A raging or rejecting parent can make a child feel powerless, inadequate, and unlovable. A distracted, demanding, or hostile lover can make us feel disregarded, devalued, and rejected.

After working for many thousands of hours with people trying to overcome painful relationship problems, I'm convinced that we use resentment and anger to punish loved ones, not so much for their behavior as for our own painful reflections in the mirror of love. We want to attack the mirror because we don't like the reflection.

To improve this cycle, stop viewing emotional pain as a punishment inflicted by someone else. Instead, learn to act on it as an internal motivation to heal, correct, and improve. This leads to deeper self-compassion and puts you more in touch with your deepest values, which will inspire more compassion for one another. You can love without hurt, but only if you use pain as a signal to heal and improve, rather than punish.
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source: Link Removed

 

[Anarchy]

Thanks @Valentino
I can certainly relate to attacking the mirror that I see reflecting my own perceived insecurities.

 

[Eleanor]

I swear to God, @Valentino, you are the most insightful therapist ever. I have to read this a few times and let it sink in. It simply never occurred to me MY PANIC might invoke FEAR and then use argument as aggression. Which is CLEARLY nuts because I practice a profession where people use argument as aggression ALL THE TIME, and it is an acknowledged problem... Of course I would never do that...:blackeye::hungover::meh:

 

[scout86]

I just went and read the whole article. Very good! There's a lot there to think about. @Valentino , thanks for bringing it up!

 

[Valentino]

I have found that working with anger is one of the missing links in healing.

Psychology tends to be focused on anxiety/FEAR, over-focusing on neurotic assumptions that all issues originate from unconscious fears. It seems more recent developments are exploring how to deal with PANIC/GRIEF (Separation Anxiety, Shame/Pride) circuits, which is assuming that people need more support, comfort, validation, good feelings, social acceptance.

The RAGE circuitry seems to be linked to the instinctive survival reptilian brain areas. While the PANIC is linked to emotional heart mammalian limbic social brain, and FEAR circuits is primarily linked with the thinking conceptual brain (neocortex).

If RAGE is part of reptilian system, then you might have to communicate with it more through habit, ritual, body movements, physical expressions, raw sensations, feelings, etc.

Also anger comes up when the reptilian instinctive brain responds (and co-opts higher brains) to actual physical or emotional pain, it blasts an adrenaline surge of energy that's there to help with defending boundaries and personal safety. A deeper and paradoxical method in response to triggered anger, is to focus on tending to the internal wounds and needs that are more towards the root of the pain. I think this is where Stosny is pointing when he refers to CORE Values as the anchor, and naturally Self-Compassion and Deeper Love comes up when attention is focused on our personal vulnerabilities and deeper shared humanity.

Ultimately all 3 core emotions of Anger, Fear and Shame(PANIC) are simply love in distortion. They are all variations of self-focused self-protective love of self. If anger can be redirected with self-focused attention towards courage to face our own wounds with the intention of compassion and wholeness, then it can complete the circuit loop. Anger directed outwards, requires others & the external world to change in order to make you whole, which can easily fall into the endless cycle trap of reinforced victim consciousness.

A quote from Stosny's book "How to Improve Marriage without talking about it" page 113

• My emotional well-being is important to me.
• My emotional well-being is more important than everything I resent.
• My emotional well-being is more important than anyone else's bad behavior.
• My relationship is more important than everything I resent and worthy of appreciation, time, energy, effort, and sacrifice.

https://books.google.com/books?id=pJH7AcCFWuQC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Ultimately talking about how to work with anger is inherently difficult. It's too easy to get lost in the intellect, it's more of a hands on skill you learn through trial & error practice, lots of repetition and direct experience. And unfortunately that means some level of conscious exposure to feelings of intense anger, hurt, and vulnerability. The natural instinct is to not want to do that. Maybe it requires some peer support, someone to mentor another, hold their hand, and guide them through all the common pitfalls and landmines in this maze of life. Ideally therapists would be able to help here, but often the therapists own issues with co-dependence and narcissism gets in the way it.

I like Michael Brown's teachings also, though he tends to be on the abstract woo-woo side. Here's a video of him describing how love underlies all.