Fight/flight/freeze - is it possible to change your default response?

[EveHarrington]

I think the goal is to not engage in these primitive responses at all, not just switch from one to another.

It sounds like from where you stand, that you think “fight” is rationally advocating for yourself?

No, not really. Actually, no, not at all.

Rationally doing *anything* is not one of the fight/flight/fawn/freeze responses, pretty much by definition as rational thinking is done by a different part of the brain.

“Fight” isn’t just fight, it’s FIGHT!!!!!! Really, you don’t want to go there. It’s not a calm assertive standing up for ones self. It’s “I’m going to fight fight fight until I feel safe again”.

Same with “flight”. As in “I want to run to the end of the world”, not just “I’m going to calmly exit this situation and go outside where I feel safe”.

And “fawn”, too.

When we react in these modes, it’s over the top. It’s primitive. It’s ANYTHING but rational.

Just think..... It would be like someone else wanting to freeze just so that they can remain calm and quiet in the moment and not open their big mouth.

See how that doesn’t really work?

Again, I think your goal is to actually stop these responses, not just flip from one primitive maladaptive response to another.

 

[barefoot]

Thanks @Abstract for writing such a detailed response. Much appreciated! I need to re-read a few times and then reflect some more on what you’ve said.

@EveHarrington yes, I agree with you. When I started this post in my triggered state, I was thinking that I hate freezing and that it was a pathetic way to behave...in particular, freezing makes me feel ashamed because I have a tendency to go to a place of “I’ve just done nothing and let them do X to me/let Y happen” so, in that state, yes, fight or flight seemed like a more proactive response and therefore a “better” response because at least it meant I was actually doing something and not just passively letting things happen. But, yes...none of the responses are ideal, I realise.

I was talking to my T the other day about my upcoming medical appointment and how the previous one hadn’t gone well. And she said that it had sounded horrendous and that, if it had been her, she wouldn’t have even sat down in the chair, she’d have just been out of there. So, I said, that’s the difference between you and me...you realise you don’t like something and you leave...I don’t like something but I still get in the chair and let things happen that I don’t want to happen. She then said that neither of our reactions are better or worse than the other’s...that both of us need to manage our reactions so that we get the best outcome....so, in my case, we are working on me managing my reaction so that I can set boundaries and advocate for myself...and she has to manage her reaction (which I guess is a flight response) because she has to get herself in the chair so that she can receive the treatment she needs otherwise she leaves without having it. It was a useful conversation - because I think when she said that she would have left at the time I first told her what had happened in the previous medical appointment, I did think that her leaving meant that she had a “better”and more self-empowered response than me.

So...yes...I realise now that none of the F responses are ideal, rational behaviour and that they are all therefore unlikely to get me a good outcome. The passive response feels very shameful to me...but I gues I could also end up feeling shamed for slightly different reasons if I did fight or flight instead.

Thanks for your post @EveHarrington as it was a good, clear reminder that all these four responses are maladaptive.

 

[Abstract]

Sorry Barefoot. I may have given the wrong impression here. Others may see this differently but from what I have read it is situational.

Is it adaptive to freeze or fight or any of the states when doing a medical examination? Not at all! We need to be out of those states entirely with all normal life situations. Or at least control them.

And when none are required they don't use them

Is it appropriate to go into freeze/dissociation if being tortured with no way out? Possibly? Was it appropriate to go into fight when being physically attacked the time I mentioned? Yes it was in that instance in my opinion.

These states are not appropriate for every day life even though we use them all the time. Because we feel like we are under attack. But it doesn't match the situation.

The way I see it those reactions are there for a reason and can be adaptive if in the right situation. For me I got stuck on freeze. That wasn't adaptive in my everyday life of course and I needed to stop doing it. I however also did it in dangerous situations. Someone coming down the road to attack me? Freeze wasn't the right "choice". Freeze is what I did. Flight was. I needed to get away. I ended up in harms way at times as a result. Different crisis situations are best reacted to according to exactly what they are. People not stuck in one response will be more flexible and adaptive. Pete Walker looks at the fallout from complex trauma through this as I understand it. Happy to be corrected. But I do strongly think believing we are just hotastage to our default response won't in any way help change those patterns. Changing my general way of thinking definitely eventually filtered down and affected those primitive responses.

 

[Changing4Best]

I usually go to freeze, but not this time. I am fighting back, not in anger, but in the way I am supposed to fight back. I do not know how it will all turn out yet. Time will tell. I took the first step this week. I tried to be as calm as I could be, though I was quite angry. I spoke up on my own behalf. I usually just bow my head in silence and "take it" whatever it is. So, I think I am changing, slowly, surely, as best as I can. It is not coming naturally totally, just a little bit.

 

[Deleted member 44579]

Hi mines is FIGHT.. I don't know if you can change your default.. But it's an interesting question.

 

[chiara vietto]

I think the goal is to not engage in these primitive responses at all, not just switch from one to another.

It sounds like from where you stand, that you think “fight” is rationally advocating for yourself?

No, not really. Actually, no, not at all.

Rationally doing *anything* is not one of the fight/flight/fawn/freeze responses, pretty much by definition as rational thinking is done by a different part of the brain.

“Fight” isn’t just fight, it’s FIGHT!!!!!! Really, you don’t want to go there. It’s not a calm assertive standing up for ones self. It’s “I’m going to fight fight fight until I feel safe again”.

Same with “flight”. As in “I want to run to the end of the world”, not just “I’m going to calmly exit this situation and go outside where I feel safe”.

And “fawn”, too.

When we react in these modes, it’s over the top. It’s primitive. It’s ANYTHING but rational.

Just think..... It would be like someone else wanting to freeze just so that they can remain calm and quiet in the moment and not open their big mouth.

See how that doesn’t really work?

Again, I think your goal is to actually stop these responses, not just flip from one primitive maladaptive response to another.

Thanks for the clarification, I read the " body keeps the score", and i didn't think that the fight response is a desirable response ...to have in everyday life..

However, a therapist that I saw initially was surprised that I didn't fight back when my ex partner that suffers cPTSD nacame symptomatic and started yelling at me, wanted a reaction from me ..and wanted to fight..
I knew that he was completely irrational and getting mad with him would have just caused violence...so I stepped away and a avoided any confrontation ...
Eventually, I stopped to see this therapist she was just making the assumption that I didn't react because I was scared..but actually I was not scared I was hurt , because he had completely flipped his personality and I couldn't reason with him..and he said that he hates me...
Sometimes I couldn't help it and I tried to reason with him, but with zero positive results...but i never yelled or act violently in any way..
I am a doctor and I always tried to de-escalate..
I just don't know if he always hated some of my behavior....but didn't have the courage to discuss it with me or if the anger come from what happened to him as a child and it is projected onto me..
It is sad that he went nuts with me,but he never had the courage to stand up to his family everytime his father, mother and sister were nusty with him, and causing so much pain to him..

 

[Teasel]

I think there's a difference between having a healthy ability to access the four F's when needed and being stuck in one of them only due to trauma. I don't think any of the four F's necessarily have to be over-reactions.

Best wishes for your appointment @barefoot :-)