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scout86
VIP Member
Can you find a way to look at this other than "Who's right, him or me?" ?
He has some issues. Everyone has issues. Personally, I think he needs to work on some of this, like "the dirt thing". (How did he handle dirt when he was deployed?) There's a couple of things that seem important here. Is he working on this stuff? How's that going? What's the marriage worth to you?
If I had a thing about dirt, like he does, I'd be working to recognize that the problem was mostly in my own head and that I need to find ways of dealing with it without lashing out at other people. Even so, sometimes we all do better jobs of that than other times.
I DON'T think you should be treated badly just because he has PTSD. His problems are his problems. You both need to understand them and you need to understand how they affect each other, and to find ways to work on things together. It's not a free pass to be mean.
If he's working on his symptoms and getting good help, there's no reason to think things won't improve. But it's not going to happen without effort.
He has some issues. Everyone has issues. Personally, I think he needs to work on some of this, like "the dirt thing". (How did he handle dirt when he was deployed?) There's a couple of things that seem important here. Is he working on this stuff? How's that going? What's the marriage worth to you?
If I had a thing about dirt, like he does, I'd be working to recognize that the problem was mostly in my own head and that I need to find ways of dealing with it without lashing out at other people. Even so, sometimes we all do better jobs of that than other times.
I DON'T think you should be treated badly just because he has PTSD. His problems are his problems. You both need to understand them and you need to understand how they affect each other, and to find ways to work on things together. It's not a free pass to be mean.
If he's working on his symptoms and getting good help, there's no reason to think things won't improve. But it's not going to happen without effort.
Friday
Sponsor
Strong 2nd to @scout86 ... When someone is right and someone is wrong? Then someone always loses, and in my experience, in a relationship? When 1 person loses, both lose.
I'm a strong proponent of "having my cake & eating it, too". Aka both people win. It can take some figuing out, how to make a situation win/win. But, again IME, totally worth it.
I'm a strong proponent of "having my cake & eating it, too". Aka both people win. It can take some figuing out, how to make a situation win/win. But, again IME, totally worth it.
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- #16
D
Deleted member 28812
@scout86: When he was deployed everything was dirty and stank and that is how it became a trigger for him.
@FridayJones: I am a big fan of win/win but can you see a hands on solution here? I like hands on advice. What can I do to not baby him but still deal graceful with the situation?
@FridayJones: I am a big fan of win/win but can you see a hands on solution here? I like hands on advice. What can I do to not baby him but still deal graceful with the situation?
scout86
VIP Member
I don't know what would work for you. If I was in a situation like yours, I'd start with that fact. "He realizes it's over the top". Great! What does he want to DO with that knowledge? Does he want to back off from his present position and learn to handle it differently or does he want to keep doing what he's doing? Because he has a CHOICE here. Really he does.
If I was in a situation like yours, I'd look at this as "a problem to be solved" for both my partner and myself. And a problem we can work on together. So, since he realizes he's a little out of proportion with this, ask him for ways you can help him adjust his reactions. Now, if I was in HIS situation (and I've been in some versions of his situation) it helps ME if my partner can nicely say "Hey, you're doing it again." We talk about it before hand. We have a way of being clear about what "it" is. We both know I know I have a problem and want to improve in that area. No accusations. It takes a lot of patience. From BOTH parties.
I think you have to start by accurately identifying the problem and deciding, together, what you want to do about it. For me, humor is a great approach. (But I make jokes about everything.)
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- #18
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Deleted member 28812
He realizes it is over the top but still cannot let go because he feels that everybody is in danger when he becomes less clean.
It is not the only area where he is flaky. He is for example late -. two hours, three hours but worries himself dead if I am two minutes late.
If he feels overwhelmed he avoids things.
My life became unpredictable because of him. sometimes I really do not like unpredictable (sometimes I do).
He hates it too. He is afraid of chaos and unpredictable things yet he is unpredictable himself. You never know if he will stay in a situation, if he will avoid. If he will be able to deal with dirt or a loud noise or someone behind his back or not.
It is not the only area where he is flaky. He is for example late -. two hours, three hours but worries himself dead if I am two minutes late.
If he feels overwhelmed he avoids things.
My life became unpredictable because of him. sometimes I really do not like unpredictable (sometimes I do).
He hates it too. He is afraid of chaos and unpredictable things yet he is unpredictable himself. You never know if he will stay in a situation, if he will avoid. If he will be able to deal with dirt or a loud noise or someone behind his back or not.
Kintsugi
Sponsor
So, I'm going to take something of a personal stance on this as a sufferer. I hope that's okay, that I'm going to relate it directly to me. You have lots of great perspectives here already.
I know I am flaky. In fact, I once endeared myself to several co-workers because I told one of them that I would love to go to X event, but "I'm super flaky," so I wanted to pay for my RSVP in advance in case I didn't show. Well, they all thought that was just a hilariously honest thing to say. But it's true. I am a major flake. When I started accepting this, I started progress on working on it.
Anyway, the point at which I accepted my flakiness was several years ago, when I realized it was a side effect of my extremely severe passive-aggression. I would make commitments I knew I couldn't keep or knew I would probably bail on anyway. I would pay lots of lipservice to lots of people, saying I'll do this and that, but then I wouldn't follow through. I would just do damage control afterwards. I lied a lot. I made up fake excuses. I'm very good at crafting believable lies because of this habit.
Anyway, sounds like your guy has a lot of passive-aggression going on to me, and maybe this is part of it? The joke cracking, the accusations, the projecting, the insistence that you maintain your standards while simultaneously berating you when you stick to your guns... To me, that sounds like passive-aggression.
Passive-aggression isn't fun for anybody. I find it to be plagued with frustration, miscommunication, and a heaping helping of guilt. However, assertive speaking skills are difficult. They take practice, patience, premeditation, and accountability. Assertive communication can even be painful to me. Honesty can be painful. Passive-aggression is easy, and it's damaging, and it's very socially acceptable (I see it everywhere as a preferred coping style)--a lethal blend. Passive-aggression says, don't worry about coping right now; lie now, damage control later, and maybe just don't cope at all (e.g. coping through avoidance, which is not coping at all).
Sometimes a good way to encourage assertive communication (after laying the foundation by all parties understanding different communication styles and their guiles) is by modeling.
"Husband, I hear you saying that you do not want me to adapt my expectations to your historical behavior. I am hearing that this is important to you. However, when you say 'Aren't you ashamed,' I feel attacked for maintaining my expectations. So, when I communicate an expectation, I would feel better respected by you communicating your feelings on how likely that expectation is to be fulfilled, considering all possibilities. In this way, I feel we could alleviate tension, by adapting expectations on a case-by-case basis."
I also agree with @Sweetpea76 that if he feels something is dirty, he needs to know he is effectively volunteering to "fix it" himself.
"Husband, I understand that you feel the sheets are dirty. I feel that they are clean, as they were just washed X time ago. I would be happy for you to wash them if this bothers you, but I cannot be responsible for your feelings on this issue, so I will not wash them myself. I appreciate your feelings, but this is not my bone to pick."
Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera... :)
Postscript: something that helps me with commitments is "checking in." Sometimes my feelings about a commitment change in a couple hours, so friends and family have learned that reminding me of the commitment often and asking what my intentions are concerning fulfilling that commitment makes it easier to gauge the likelihood of my following through with said commitment.
I know I am flaky. In fact, I once endeared myself to several co-workers because I told one of them that I would love to go to X event, but "I'm super flaky," so I wanted to pay for my RSVP in advance in case I didn't show. Well, they all thought that was just a hilariously honest thing to say. But it's true. I am a major flake. When I started accepting this, I started progress on working on it.
Anyway, the point at which I accepted my flakiness was several years ago, when I realized it was a side effect of my extremely severe passive-aggression. I would make commitments I knew I couldn't keep or knew I would probably bail on anyway. I would pay lots of lipservice to lots of people, saying I'll do this and that, but then I wouldn't follow through. I would just do damage control afterwards. I lied a lot. I made up fake excuses. I'm very good at crafting believable lies because of this habit.
Anyway, sounds like your guy has a lot of passive-aggression going on to me, and maybe this is part of it? The joke cracking, the accusations, the projecting, the insistence that you maintain your standards while simultaneously berating you when you stick to your guns... To me, that sounds like passive-aggression.
Passive-aggression isn't fun for anybody. I find it to be plagued with frustration, miscommunication, and a heaping helping of guilt. However, assertive speaking skills are difficult. They take practice, patience, premeditation, and accountability. Assertive communication can even be painful to me. Honesty can be painful. Passive-aggression is easy, and it's damaging, and it's very socially acceptable (I see it everywhere as a preferred coping style)--a lethal blend. Passive-aggression says, don't worry about coping right now; lie now, damage control later, and maybe just don't cope at all (e.g. coping through avoidance, which is not coping at all).
Sometimes a good way to encourage assertive communication (after laying the foundation by all parties understanding different communication styles and their guiles) is by modeling.
"Husband, I hear you saying that you do not want me to adapt my expectations to your historical behavior. I am hearing that this is important to you. However, when you say 'Aren't you ashamed,' I feel attacked for maintaining my expectations. So, when I communicate an expectation, I would feel better respected by you communicating your feelings on how likely that expectation is to be fulfilled, considering all possibilities. In this way, I feel we could alleviate tension, by adapting expectations on a case-by-case basis."
I also agree with @Sweetpea76 that if he feels something is dirty, he needs to know he is effectively volunteering to "fix it" himself.
"Husband, I understand that you feel the sheets are dirty. I feel that they are clean, as they were just washed X time ago. I would be happy for you to wash them if this bothers you, but I cannot be responsible for your feelings on this issue, so I will not wash them myself. I appreciate your feelings, but this is not my bone to pick."
Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera... :)
Postscript: something that helps me with commitments is "checking in." Sometimes my feelings about a commitment change in a couple hours, so friends and family have learned that reminding me of the commitment often and asking what my intentions are concerning fulfilling that commitment makes it easier to gauge the likelihood of my following through with said commitment.
scout86
VIP Member
To use a popular forum quote "feelings are not facts". And, he hasn't been able to let go YET. Not the same thing as "can't". Also not the same thing as "thinks he can't". Has he never heard that "failure is not an option"? I really think he CAN do what ever he sets his mind to. Might be hard, might take awhile, might be messy in the meanwhile, but most things are possible.
Yep, he or she who first is bothered by dirt gets to do the clean up. ESPECIALLY when they know the "dirt" is only a problem in the confines of their own brain.
I think @Simply Simon has some great points that he might want to think about.
What IS he doing to work on this, besides trying to get you to meet his standards?
Everything Simon said is so right.
I am flaky. I don't want to be flaky. I don't enjoy being flaky and it isn't something I set out to do. But I am.
Sometimes I want to go to a crowded event, I want to go out and see friends with my husband. And sometimes the day comes and I can't. Sometimes I and everyone else is better off with me being at home instead of a wreck in public. An event that was 2 months away is now a week away and I'm kind of freaking out that I don't want to go now. Before it sounded like fun. Now it sounds terrifying.
I like the idea of being held to the same standard as everyone else. But that isn't always possible. I am working on being less flaky and definitely have attended more events this year than I did previously. But it's not a flip the switch kind of thing. I know I need to work on it but its been months and years of slow progress.
The joking sounds like a defenseman mechanism. I know I make jokes to deflect attention. If I laugh it off then people won't realise how seriously hurt or stupid or embarrassed or ashamed I feel. All they see is the laughter and the not taking stuff seriously. Though that happens less often and is more in social situations with others.
The dirt thing does sound a bit odd to me but everyone's triggers are odd. I have some odd triggers myself. I think the important thing is he knows the dirt thing is an issue and is just going to have to work on it with time.
Try to be happy that he knows its an issue. And also that he has shared with you about his fear a bit as its difficult to open up about stuff.
I think this is one of those things that requires time and patience. But I definitely think you should set up a boundary and not tolerate him putting it on you. Simon gave great examples of things to say that would be helpful.
I am flaky. I don't want to be flaky. I don't enjoy being flaky and it isn't something I set out to do. But I am.
Sometimes I want to go to a crowded event, I want to go out and see friends with my husband. And sometimes the day comes and I can't. Sometimes I and everyone else is better off with me being at home instead of a wreck in public. An event that was 2 months away is now a week away and I'm kind of freaking out that I don't want to go now. Before it sounded like fun. Now it sounds terrifying.
I like the idea of being held to the same standard as everyone else. But that isn't always possible. I am working on being less flaky and definitely have attended more events this year than I did previously. But it's not a flip the switch kind of thing. I know I need to work on it but its been months and years of slow progress.
The joking sounds like a defenseman mechanism. I know I make jokes to deflect attention. If I laugh it off then people won't realise how seriously hurt or stupid or embarrassed or ashamed I feel. All they see is the laughter and the not taking stuff seriously. Though that happens less often and is more in social situations with others.
The dirt thing does sound a bit odd to me but everyone's triggers are odd. I have some odd triggers myself. I think the important thing is he knows the dirt thing is an issue and is just going to have to work on it with time.
Try to be happy that he knows its an issue. And also that he has shared with you about his fear a bit as its difficult to open up about stuff.
I think this is one of those things that requires time and patience. But I definitely think you should set up a boundary and not tolerate him putting it on you. Simon gave great examples of things to say that would be helpful.
Wastinglight
Platinum Member
To reply your original questions @Lemontree, I tolerate a fair bit of "flakiness" from my guy.
For example, we have never been out to dinner together. Or to a movie, pub, club or any other kind of event. We don't go out at night at all. Ever. He doesn't do these things with anyone else either, and it's possible he never will again.
I have accepted that he will probably never meet my friends, and possibly not even my family (they do live in another state though).
He rarely directly admits that this is due to his PTSD, he usually just says he doesn't have any interest in doing these things. Which may be true, however, before his PTSD he used to do all of the above things. He was a very social person before the trauma (although I didn't know him them). He seems to enjoy talking about those times though. He pretty much never apologises if any of his 'quirks' inconvenience or hurt me.
His house is a mess a lot of the time, but that doesn't stop him telling me off for leaving my stuff lying around. I am normally very tidy, and I frequently tidy up his stuff as well, but it feels like he has a double standard with this. He's allowed to be messy, but I'm not, not even ocassionally? Really? I called him on that one day, and he admitted that he needs to pull his finger out and clean the place up a bit. But he also remarked that my messiness on top of his messiness is somehow too much. Bottom line: I'm not allowed to be messy regardless of what he's doing.
He still enforces the "no-singing-unless-you're-in-the-shower" rule. He pulled me up on that one yesterday, and I countered that I would understand if my singing was awful, but I have a reasonable singing voice. I auditioned for a rock choir a few years ago, and they seemed impressed with my ability. Eh, anyway...
I feel like he's getting worse not better. We used to go around to his parents' place for special occasions (birthdays, Christmas, etc). A few months ago, he stopped inviting me to these events. I suspect he tries to avoid going to as many of them as he can himself, but it makes me pretty sad that I'm excluded in this way. I know his parents quite well and we get on really well together, as his dad attends the same sporting activity that we do on weekends. I suspect this is part of the problem, because my guy remarked the other day that his dad talks to me more than he talks to him these days (which is absolutely not true but he seemed upset about it anyway). I have even been invited around to his parents' house for dinner, and ended up going by myself, because my guy refuses to go with me!
I end up feeling like my life is very restrictive with him. Most of the above things are not a bother by themselves, but taken all together, I sometimes wonder if it's something I will be able to live with in the long term. Especially if he keeps adding additional "flakes" to the list...
But to be fair, it's possible that he feels the same way about me, but relating to different issues...
For example, we have never been out to dinner together. Or to a movie, pub, club or any other kind of event. We don't go out at night at all. Ever. He doesn't do these things with anyone else either, and it's possible he never will again.
I have accepted that he will probably never meet my friends, and possibly not even my family (they do live in another state though).
He rarely directly admits that this is due to his PTSD, he usually just says he doesn't have any interest in doing these things. Which may be true, however, before his PTSD he used to do all of the above things. He was a very social person before the trauma (although I didn't know him them). He seems to enjoy talking about those times though. He pretty much never apologises if any of his 'quirks' inconvenience or hurt me.
His house is a mess a lot of the time, but that doesn't stop him telling me off for leaving my stuff lying around. I am normally very tidy, and I frequently tidy up his stuff as well, but it feels like he has a double standard with this. He's allowed to be messy, but I'm not, not even ocassionally? Really? I called him on that one day, and he admitted that he needs to pull his finger out and clean the place up a bit. But he also remarked that my messiness on top of his messiness is somehow too much. Bottom line: I'm not allowed to be messy regardless of what he's doing.
He still enforces the "no-singing-unless-you're-in-the-shower" rule. He pulled me up on that one yesterday, and I countered that I would understand if my singing was awful, but I have a reasonable singing voice. I auditioned for a rock choir a few years ago, and they seemed impressed with my ability. Eh, anyway...
I feel like he's getting worse not better. We used to go around to his parents' place for special occasions (birthdays, Christmas, etc). A few months ago, he stopped inviting me to these events. I suspect he tries to avoid going to as many of them as he can himself, but it makes me pretty sad that I'm excluded in this way. I know his parents quite well and we get on really well together, as his dad attends the same sporting activity that we do on weekends. I suspect this is part of the problem, because my guy remarked the other day that his dad talks to me more than he talks to him these days (which is absolutely not true but he seemed upset about it anyway). I have even been invited around to his parents' house for dinner, and ended up going by myself, because my guy refuses to go with me!
I end up feeling like my life is very restrictive with him. Most of the above things are not a bother by themselves, but taken all together, I sometimes wonder if it's something I will be able to live with in the long term. Especially if he keeps adding additional "flakes" to the list...
But to be fair, it's possible that he feels the same way about me, but relating to different issues...
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Wastinglight
Platinum Member
By the way, @Simply Simon - is your new avatar related to Death Note? I freakin love that show!
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- #24
D
Deleted member 28812
@Wastinglight: Why is he opposed to you singing? You never meet any people ever? That sounds very sad. My guy is not opposed to meeting people in fact he likes being around our friends and talk and laugh with them. He just does not like crowds.
Sometimes he is afraid people will judge him. Could your guy be afraid of that?
I don't know if he ever heard that but he feels that he fails in the moment when he let's go of his fears - example: his hands are not clean enough --> the baby gets infected --> the baby dies --> epic fail.
@Simply Simon: Other have mentioned passive aggressiveness before but I don't like it and am actually happy it is not mentioned around here very often. Do I have a blindspot? Maybe but I do believe in win-win.
Sometimes he is afraid people will judge him. Could your guy be afraid of that?
I don't know if he ever heard that but he feels that he fails in the moment when he let's go of his fears - example: his hands are not clean enough --> the baby gets infected --> the baby dies --> epic fail.
@Simply Simon: Other have mentioned passive aggressiveness before but I don't like it and am actually happy it is not mentioned around here very often. Do I have a blindspot? Maybe but I do believe in win-win.
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