I' Am New Here And Need Some Advice.

[ironbird]

I have been reading your forums for a month or so now and only joined just 5 minutes ago. I have found lots of information that has been helpful, but I think I need to tell my story and get some answers myself.

I' am 22 and have been seeing a girl who is 21. For a long while her behaviour seemed weird and erratic. However something made me think there was more to her than met the eye. Sure enough, after we had gotten back together from spliting due to her crazy behaviour, I ask her some deep questions and it turns out she was raped when she was younger. Continually from the ages of 5 until she was 7 by her half brother. She told me it was her brother months later.

My mother had ptsd so I am familiar with the symptoms and from what I have read, she has everything. I know I should leave the diagnosis up to the professionals but I was raised by someone with ptsd so I' am willing to put money on the fact I'm right. I showed her the list of criteria and she agrees too. She does everything I have seen the sufferers on this site talk about, avoiding things, for instance the day she told me it was her brother who was raping her she avoided me for a few weeks after that. However the main one which bothers me is that she says she cannot feel anything for me nor has she anyone. She has shown signs that she has feelings towards me but then they seem to die off and when she goes home, she will become distant and its like we never shared any of the special moments the previous weekend.

We were having a talk about things yesterday and she said she thinks it is best if we end things for my sake because she doesn't want to hurt me with her lack of feelings. I have been slowly talking her into getting therapy but she is very unsure because she obviously doesn't want to deal with her issues and thinks she would become emotionally crippled and unable to function in her everyday life. She says also (which I think is irrational) that if she does get therapy then she doesn't want to be seeing anyone because she thinks that if she develops feelings only because she was seeing that particular person in that time then the feelings would be unnatural. I can understand if she doesn't want therapy but it is stupid to not want to see someone because the feelings would be unnatural. A person could analyse every scenario in which two people meet and find faults in all the details and say "what if you guys met at this point in your lifes, you wouldn't have met" Its just boarding on hypotheticals and if someone was going to work then therapy wouldn't make her bond to someone like a duck seeing the first lifeform outside of its egg and thinking its mother. I said to her that if it happens then, it would have happened anytime. So I basically talked her into staying and we are going to catch up for the next few days but she changes with the wind. One night we bumped into an ex girlfriend of mine and she told me she was very jealous. Even when she saw me talking to some other girls, she said she was jealous and was suspicious of me having a relationship with them. She also wanted to be exclusive with me so I think she must have feelings deep down but she pushes them away. She made it quite clear she really wanted to keep seeing me but only thought we should end things for my sake in the longrun. We kissed and made up etc..

She has never been this close to anyone else in her life and has told me things shes never told anyone else. I wouldn't quite say shes my girlfriend but we are exclusive and thats a first for her. She has only been initmate with another guy a handful of times because she said she wanted to see if having sex would fix her and therefore wouldn't need therapy, obviously that didn't work. I know if I leave her she will never find anyone who is able to help her like me and she would most likely have a string of meaningless flings until her looks faded and then she would become a lonley old woman. She said she doesn't want this but is content with that outcome.

So I have a few questions for everyone. I really want to know if it is worth persuing this any further. I know if she doesn't get therapy then it wouldn't be but if she does, is there any chance she could ever be sort of normal and be able to feel her feelings for me? Is it possible she has feelings for me hence the jealousy but she is (sub)-consciously pushing them away? I could have sworn she did from some of that she said to me and how she acted at certain times but as I said before, that fades. She has also said she is scared of feeling anything for anyone becuase she is already emotionally screwed up and if she got hurt by someone she opened up to, that would hurt her too much.

Before anyone says I have dependacy issues, I think I do because my mum died last year and she was very similar to this girl.

Thanks if anyone read all of that.

 

[Turtle]

The short answer to both of those questions IMO is yes. However the longer answer it not nearly as neat and clear cut.

It's possible she has feelings for you, but pushes away out of fear or other reasons, consicous or not (I do this A LOT, and so do many others on here as I'm sure you've noticed). It takes a lot of work to get past that, I still struggle with it personally. I have to conciously notice when I do it and tell myself to knock it off, that I WANT someone close to me, that I like having that closeness. But that's just me and how I try to handle it.

It's possible one day she could be comfortable feeling her feelings (suprisingly difficult for some PTSD sufferers, so many unwanted emotions make it hard to actually want to feel them sometimes). But like you said it's probably going to take therapy, and it's not going to happen over night.

On a personal side note here's my background in this area. My carer started out as a friend just wanting to help me get better, he suffers from PTSD as well and noticed I was having a rough go of it. We had been flirting for awhile and I eventually became comfortable opening up to him more about my PTSD stuff. We are not exactly dating either, but we are exclusive. We don't date partially because he wants my recovery to be first and foremost the important aspect of our relationship. If only being friends was what was best for me then he would do that. He wants be to be happy and healthy any way he can help with that he tries to. He didn't want to add the stress of a relationship to me trying to get better, especially since this all started around the time I started therapy. We have good days and bad days, and sometimes this can be very rough on him too. It's not for everyone, I've had bf who couldn't handle it and left.

I'm not saying you should do this, or that this is the best option, just that this is what worked out for us. Everyone responds to PTSD in different ways, and responds to support in different ways.

I wish you luck! You seem like a very caring guy, and she is lucky to have someone like you around to care about her.

 

[ironbird]

So has therapy taught you to 'conciously notice' when you push away your partner? When you say you want someone close to you, do you feel any love for that person or just the comfort they bring to you?

A friend of mine explained her feelings for me like this:

"When she says "she doesn't feel anything for you or anyone" it means that she can't right now, at this moment in time, call forth any emotion. She is locked away from her emotions. When she is "in the moment" with you however she will be feeling emotion, it's just when she has time to think or isn't completely in the moment that all those defence mechanisms kick in and she is cut off from emotion again. This is both voluntary and involuntary."

Does that sound like a good explanation?

So you do agree its a matter of 'feeling her feelings', and that they are there just dormant? I thought maybe since this happened then her personality was still forming it could have messed her up too badly to be fixed? I guess this is all just a bunch of maybes that correlate back to her getting therapy to unlock the answers to my questions. Do you or anyone else on her know of any ptsd suffers that have been successfully rehabilitated enough to 'love' someone? I have read stories on here of couples meeting, falling for one and other and THEN realising that one of them has ptsd and the problems begin It has made me wonder how they felt any infatuation if they had ptsd from before they met their partner.

You 'relationship' sounds like mine. We are exclusive but see each other in varying degrees of frequency depending on her need to avoid certain feelings. It goes from 3 times a week to twice per month.... She doesn't enjoy sex at all and can only do it over one night and then will disappear from my life for the next week or two or seven and then be in the mood. I try to initiate but she says shes too tired 90% of the time. I have expressed to her that I understand 100% and don't want to her to do anything unless she wants to 100% so she doesn't feel pressured.

I will talk to her tonight if she doesn't flake on me and try to get her to understand how dumb it would be for her to not see me when shes getting therapy because of the fact any feelings she had wouldn't be natural if she was only seeing one guy at that time. I'll try and tell her that if it happens then, it would have happened before or anytime and therapy won't just make her cling to the first guys she talks to after her first session. I think the psychology behind this is her need for control since she has had it stripped from her in the past and her need to feel like she wasn't being taken advantage of.

I care about her a lot and want to stay with her and help her.

 

[cherryblossom]

I know I should leave the diagnosis up to the professionals but I was raised by someone with ptsd so I' am willing to put money on the fact I'm right.

Yes, diagnosis should be left to the professionals. A diagnosis of PTSD is more comprehensive than just reading a diagnostic criteria. You could well be right, but a Psychiatrist would be able to diagnose properly.

I have been slowly talking her into getting therapy but she is very unsure because she obviously doesn't want to deal with her issues and thinks she would become emotionally crippled and unable to function in her everyday life.

For therapy to be worth while a person has to be willing and able to commit to it 100%. If she says she's not ready, then she's not ready. No amount of persuasion from you will make her ready. Even if she agrees to attend therapy, if her heart is not in it 100%, it will not help. It could cause more damage if she is truely not 'ready' to face her past yet.

She says also (which I think is irrational) that if she does get therapy then she doesn't want to be seeing anyone because she thinks that if she develops feelings only because she was seeing that particular person in that time then the feelings would be unnatural. I can understand if she doesn't want therapy but it is stupid to not want to see someone because the feelings would be unnatural.

Again, she has to go about therapy in a way which suits her. Not in a way which suits you. Saying her opinion is stupid won't help. If she feels she cannot deal with both therapy and a relationship, then that is her decision to make.

I know if I leave her she will never find anyone who is able to help her like me and she would most likely have a string of meaningless flings until her looks faded and then she would become a lonley old woman. She said she doesn't want this but is content with that outcome.

Sorry, but I have to say this. That is a ridiculous statement. What makes you think you are the only person in the world to be able to help her? How do you know she will have a string of meaningless flings? And as for her looks fading and her becoming a lonely old woman, I find that disrespectful to both women and men. What a shallow view of the world. I assume you have discussed this scenario with her, since she has said she is content with that outcome. How do you imagine a statement like that could possibly help her? Low self-esteem is a very common trait in survivors of sexual abuse. Statements like the above, will only compound that. It is actually quite controlling and manipulative to tell her that you are the only person who can help her, and that without you she will end up a lonely old woman

So you do agree its a matter of 'feeling her feelings', and that they are there just dormant? I thought maybe since this happened then her personality was still forming it could have messed her up too badly to be fixed? I guess this is all just a bunch of maybes that correlate back to her getting therapy to unlock the answers to my questions. Do you or anyone else on her know of any ptsd suffers that have been successfully rehabilitated enough to 'love' someone?

PTSD can't just be 'fixed'. The symptoms can be well managed, and yes, people with PTSD can fall in love and be happy.

She doesn't enjoy sex at all and can only do it over one night and then will disappear from my life for the next week or two or seven and then be in the mood. I try to initiate but she says shes too tired 90% of the time. I have expressed to her that I understand 100% and don't want to her to do anything unless she wants to 100% so she doesn't feel pressured.

If you know she doesn't enjoy sex, why do you try to initiate sex, and have sex with her? It's one thing saying to her that there's no pressure for sex, but then initiating sex by your actions is sending mixed messages.

 

[ironbird]

Yes, diagnosis should be left to the professionals. A diagnosis of PTSD is more comprehensive than just reading a diagnostic criteria. You could well be right, but a Psychiatrist would be able to diagnose properly.

Agreed

For therapy to be worth while a person has to be willing and able to commit to it 100%. If she says she's not ready, then she's not ready. No amount of persuasion from you will make her ready. Even if she agrees to attend therapy, if her heart is not in it 100%, it will not help. It could cause more damage if she is truely not 'ready' to face her past yet.

She seems to go in and out of wanting to do it. Obviously, I will be leaving it to her to make the first step so I know she is 100% commited. I have simply made it clear to her that if she wants to help herself then therapy is the way.

Again, she has to go about therapy in a way which suits her. Not in a way which suits you. Saying her opinion is stupid won't help. If she feels she cannot deal with both therapy and a relationship, then that is her decision to make.

I agree 100% that she needs to do things on her terms in this department, however I probably should have used a word other than stupid to discribe her thoughts on the matter. It is stupid to someone like me, who doesn't suffer from anything, to think like this but I would never say that to her. I just think it is a product of her fear and need for control which is totally understandable.

Sorry, but I have to say this. That is a ridiculous statement. What makes you think you are the only person in the world to be able to help her? How do you know she will have a string of meaningless flings? And as for her looks fading and her becoming a lonely old woman, I find that disrespectful to both women and men. What a shallow view of the world. I assume you have discussed this scenario with her, since she has said she is content with that outcome. How do you imagine a statement like that could possibly help her? Low self-esteem is a very common trait in survivors of sexual abuse. Statements like the above, will only compound that. It is actually quite controlling and manipulative to tell her that you are the only person who can help her, and that without you she will end up a lonely old woman

Firstly, I would never say this to her. It is simply a worst case scenario that has played through my head. I brought the fact of her looks into it because, to be honest, other then them, no one would put up with her behaviour for very long. Hence the reason why we initially broke up. I started to see her again because I suspected her of having deeper issues that I had seen within my mother. Sure enough, they were there and I have since made allowances for her behaviour. You obviously have no clue about how she handles her PTSD, and if you did you wouldn't blame the majority of guys she has simply dated and have told her to get lost. It would be nice to think all people in their early 20's gave a f*ck about a person when in reality the majority are looking for a good time in the easiet possible route. I assumed that if she hadn't been inspired to get help by her late twenties then her problems would have only compounded and by this stage, no man would want anything to do with her. Leaving her a 'lonely old woman'. Once again a fear on my part. I also have given her every oppertunity to call it quits with me and she has opted to stay. I was simply giving an example of her logic.

PTSD can't just be 'fixed'. The symptoms can be well managed, and yes, people with PTSD can fall in love and be happy.

I like hearing this

If you know she doesn't enjoy sex, why do you try to initiate sex, and have sex with her? It's one thing saying to her that there's no pressure for sex, but then initiating sex by your actions is sending mixed messages.

I cannot be bothered explaining the ins and outs of this. Just assume there is a mutual connection and when I try to progress things, she lets me know if shes ready or not. This really isn't that big of a deal to us and she knows I don't mind. I brought this up to give people reading a rounded view of how her abuse has affected to her to hopefully gain some insight.

Thanks for your input. I hope I have given you a clearer understanding of our 'relationship'. Please tell me if you want me to make it any clearer.

 

[ironbird]

Ok, I screwed up trying to quote you. Please read my responses within the quote box. :oops:

 

[Tinyflame]

Hello ironbird, I think you are trying very hard and doing very well in explaining your relationship and how you feel, -it is almost 'inexplicable', isn't it, ptsd? I do however agree with what CB said and think it will help you immensely to concentrate on her meaning, she's really given you a tremendous insight.

I appreciate that you do care for your gf, and are not just looking to use her. If I 'hear' you correctly, you are wanting her to get effective help (and perhaps some or much of her 'behaviours' right now or in the past are intolerable). That being said, all I know ironbird is this: trust me- it has been my experience that people with ptsd have no problem loving others- if anything there is a greater (and deleterious) fear of causing them harm or not being 'enough' for them. That does not mean however, that they will lack partners, more often they ('we') will choose people who do not have our best interests at heart, instead.

But it is mentioned much on this forum: healing is a very individual path. 'Therapy' is not the same for everyone, nor a guaranteed-solution, is is an adjunct to healing- we have to do the work and face the demons. *In some cases, the wrong-timing or wrong Therapist can even do more damage.* I don't think anyone with ptsd (or most people, for that matter) will be motivated or feel better about themselves to have someone decide what they can handle or not, do or not, choose or not (or when), or even their thoughts on a matter (eg dating during therapy). It has to be her life- let her live it. If you love each other, and you learn how to care for each other and communicate better-and-better, you will grow closer and both learn to see things very differently than you do now.

Good luck to you both-

 

[ironbird]

That being said, all I know ironbird is this: trust me- it has been my experience that people with ptsd have no problem loving others- if anything there is a greater (and deleterious) fear of causing them harm or not being 'enough' for them. That does not mean however, that they will lack partners, more often they ('we') will choose people who do not have our best interests at heart, instead.

Thanks very much for your reply. I do just want her to get effective help. However, if possible, I want to be with her because I have feelings for her whilst she gets help.

I know therapy will help every person differently and have not pressured her at all on the topic. I know thats the worst thing I could do. She knows help is out there and now its up to her.

The above statement that you have made confuses me a little bit. Could you please help me understand it better? Are you saying PTSD shouldn't stop her from having feelings for me and that simply there is something that she is fearing thats stopping her? I' am guilty of blaming her lack of feelings on her PTSD when in actual fact I might just not be the one for her.... I have placed hope on the fact that she will get help and then her feelings will be unlocked. Does it work this way or not?

She has said to me in our earlier days that she doesn't want to risk getting hurt and feeling any emotional pain because she thinks she is already too emotionally unstable and if she shared all of herself with someone she wouldn't be able to handle the pain of that falling apart. I guess that means there is not only a sub-consious effort but a conscious effort to supress any emotions that could pose a threat to her fragile self. She still maintains she feels nothing for me however her actions say otherwise at certain times.

Tonight for example; we were sitting on my couch talking etc, and we somehow got onto the topic of our relationship. I was testing her reactions and saying she wouldn't care if things were an open relationship and she would probably prefer it (obviously I was hoping she wouldn't agree) She scarcastically said "fine.." We laughed and then she said she just wants to be with me only. Some heavy kissing, initiated by her ensued. Also, we were talking about me meeting her mother the other day and she said she doesn't want me to because then her mother would know she has had sex (Yeah I know, shes 21...) She then said some stuff that she wouldn't let anyone meet her unless she was definiate about them. Later in the night she asked me what I was doing for New years and I said nothing, she then invited me to hang out with her and her mother...

Thanks for your reply.

 

[AdamAnt]

Oh Boy...

ironbird, you've come so far, but you've still far to go. I commend you for you efforts!

My advice to you would be to first and foremost be a real friend to her. By that I mean to be there no matter what. I know you feel like you are, but what if she said we're not having sex for a long time and held you to that...what if you had a crystal ball and you could see that you would not be having sex with her for 6 months...are you still going to hang with her? Its plain to see that you want to help her get over this, but what if things don't go according to your plan? I sense that you're trying to guide her in a positive way, but be careful that doesn't turn into controlling, okay?

When she begins therapy, it's almost universal for things to get worse before they get better...you know what that means. She could push you farther away than ever before, her therapist could say you need to give it a break if things get too intense...she has to concentrate on healing and not on pleasing you or what's needed to maintain a normal relationship. Are you really prepared for that?

If you choose this, you're choosing a really hard road. There's no quick fix, you could be talking years of two steps forward and one step back just to get things to being managable...there's no cure for this!

Are you in college? If not, I'd recommend you go ahead and sign-up for the psychiatry curriculum, because you're about to put in the time and effort...might as well have the degree to show for it! :)

 

[cherryblossom]

Ok, I screwed up trying to quote you. Please read my responses within the quote box. :oops:

No worries - I have corrected your quotes ;)

 

[cherryblossom]

I'm not knocking your efforts. You clearly want to help your girlfriend, and that is very commendable. You are here, and you are learning about PTSD, so all credit to you.

No, I don't know how she handles her PTSD. I only know how I handle my PTSD, and my knowledge of your g/f is only what you have shared here.

I'll give you my take, based on my experience of PTSD (from rape when I was 20)
It sounds very much like she is having an internal battle with herself. Wanting to trust you, but not wanting to get hurt. Wanting to be intimate with you, but battling with demons from the past. Wanting you to meet her Mother, but not wanting to be judged by her. The easiest thing for 'us PTSDers' is to push people away. If we push people away, we don't have to deal with those battles. Things seem easier (less stressful), if we are alone. Yet we still want to be loved. Confusing isn't it? She is probably very confused about love, showing affection, intimacy and sex, because of her past. I doubt that she is deliberately trying to lead you on, but she probably doesn't know herself, exactly what she wants from your relationship, or even whether she wants a relationship with you or anyone. Or whether she can emotionally 'handle' a relationship. I would recommend that you read some of the articles in the home section. Try [DLMURL="http://www.ptsdforum.org/relationships/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-a-reality-check.html"]this one[/DLMURL] for starters.

 

[ironbird]

Oh Boy...

ironbird, you've come so far, but you've still far to go. I commend you for you efforts!

My advice to you would be to first and foremost be a real friend to her. By that I mean to be there no matter what. I know you feel like you are, but what if she said we're not having sex for a long time and held you to that...what if you had a crystal ball and you could see that you would not be having sex with her for 6 months...are you still going to hang with her? Its plain to see that you want to help her get over this, but what if things don't go according to your plan? I sense that you're trying to guide her in a positive way, but be careful that doesn't turn into controlling, okay?

When she begins therapy, it's almost universal for things to get worse before they get better...you know what that means. She could push you farther away than ever before, her therapist could say you need to give it a break if things get too intense...she has to concentrate on healing and not on pleasing you or what's needed to maintain a normal relationship. Are you really prepared for that?

If you choose this, you're choosing a really hard road. There's no quick fix, you could be talking years of two steps forward and one step back just to get things to being managable...there's no cure for this!

Are you in college? If not, I'd recommend you go ahead and sign-up for the psychiatry curriculum, because you're about to put in the time and effort...might as well have the degree to show for it! :)

If we didn't have sex for 6 months, I would still hang with her. We didn't have sex for 7 weeks and we still hung out heaps and I didn't initiate anything in that period because I knew it wasn't the time.

When she does start therapy, I am prepared for the fact she might break things off because she needs to retreat to her shell and will let her know I am always here for her. I think when you say "she has to concentrate on healing and not on pleasing you" is so true. I will tell her this if we talk about the topic of therapy again.

Haha, I' am actually studying something else at uni, but I think I might be getting a 'unofficial degree' in this.

I'm not knocking your efforts. You clearly want to help your girlfriend, and that is very commendable. You are here, and you are learning about PTSD, so all credit to you.

No, I don't know how she handles her PTSD. I only know how I handle my PTSD, and my knowledge of your g/f is only what you have shared here.

I'll give you my take, based on my experience of PTSD (from rape when I was 20)
It sounds very much like she is having an internal battle with herself. Wanting to trust you, but not wanting to get hurt. Wanting to be intimate with you, but battling with demons from the past. Wanting you to meet her Mother, but not wanting to be judged by her. The easiest thing for 'us PTSDers' is to push people away. If we push people away, we don't have to deal with those battles. Things seem easier (less stressful), if we are alone. Yet we still want to be loved. Confusing isn't it? She is probably very confused about love, showing affection, intimacy and sex, because of her past. I doubt that she is deliberately trying to lead you on, but she probably doesn't know herself, exactly what she wants from your relationship, or even whether she wants a relationship with you or anyone. Or whether she can emotionally 'handle' a relationship. I would recommend that you read some of the articles in the home section. Try [DLMURL="http://www.ptsdforum.org/relationships/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-a-reality-check.html"]this one[/DLMURL] for starters.

This sounds spot on. She wants to trust me but doesn't want to get hurt etc. She says sometimes she doesn't want a relationship and other times(sometimes 5 minutes after saying the opposite) will say she does. So when she says she doesn't have any feelings for me, what does this mean? Lets just assume she isn't a robot of some sort. Does she have feelings but she says she doesn't because she doesn't want them to grow out of fear so she thinks saying she doesn't will just make them go away? Or she does have feelings, can't feel them until she has a little moment with me that touches her and then she can remember briefly until they fade? I mean why would she be so jealous and insecure of me and only want to be with me if she didn't have feelings?! It doesn't add up at all.

I have read that article and some others there. Well things are already a rollercoaster and I know they won't change til she gets help but I feel strongly about her and want to make things work. I think a quote that sums up my thoughts on relationships helps me to get through the tougher times: "The star that burns twice as bright, burns half as long". Meaning that the slower things take to develop, they will have a stronger foundation. Not always true when it comes to the complex creatures that humans are.

I have to be very strong when ALL my friends and family that have given me advice on her say:

"shes just a player"
"shes just using you"
"she sounds like a bitch"
"if she liked you, she'd be with you all the time"

They have no clue about any of her problems at all. I have told a couple friends and my dad about her having PTSD and they seem to think its some big joke and things are either black or white with people. They can't seem to understand any concept of mental illness and just don't understand things at all. I have to keep in the back of my mind that they are misinformed. I know 100% that none of what they say is true... my dad, who I will give credit to is the most informed, says she might have a narcissistic personality disorder, which I don't think is true at all. He thinks this because one time we were due to go on a bushwalk together and she cancelled on me because she said she had to do housework that day. When she had all week to do her housework she chose to do it (if she did?) on that one day. When I asked her about it she said "my life comes first" because she wants to help her mum and sister for the limited time she thinks she has left. She has also said she has never wanted to get therapy because she doesn't want to burden anyone with her problems and just wants to die and be forgotten. She has some sort of matyrdom attitude that she will sacrifice her life and dedicate it to helping her mother in various ways. My dad just thinks "if you like someone, then you want to see them, it isn't rocket science buddy"...