Lawyers, Fees And The Concept Of Time Costing

[sedna]

@Coco-I agree to disagree with you on this statement you made, but will explain:


Evid...

@brat17

I Very much appreciate your thorough explanation on how you viewed the thread.

I'm going to clarify my position in a way I was trying to avoid for a variety of reasons here.

I work in the legal field, it's not my favorite thing to be doing, and it's one of the reasons that I'm not particularly happy at this time in my life. I wish I had gone back to get my nursing license updated years ago instead. I'm not thrilled with how I spend my days, I've just gone back to work this week.

My experience with attorneys is both personal and professional, I've been in a position to only afford lousy representation and I've also had in house business attorneys for managing LLC's at a previous time in my life. I've socialized with attorneys... and I've sued a couple for malpractice and won. ( not my friends )

For some reason, and I'm hoping you don't take this personally. The circumstances I described a situation that pro bono consultations would be expected, as well as the type of attorneys you'd want to give them to you, have been mostly over looked by the people reading my posts.

I have also never heard of a divorce attorney giving free consultations, by the way.

I agree with everything you're saying and don't doubt a word of it. The divorce attorney is the most reviled creature in the court room, the rule is always whoever has access to the most legal fees wins. The ability to hide assets is not even a challenge if they know you can't afford a forensic accountant to officially track it and present it to a judge. I'm sorry you had a bad experience also. My own case involved complicated international businesses and I just had to walk away.
I get disgusted when I see what should be straight forward situations get muddled here, because one party has the money to drag things out and muddle them.

Suing an attorney for malpractice is almost always a waste of time for the same reasons, they'll bleed out your resources until you cant fight with meaningless motions and delays. They're bullies, they also protect their own. Don't think the drug addict lawyers aren't playing golf with the rest of them, they have each others backs out of the court room. In my case there was such in your face egregious malpractice that it was actually a slam dunk, the attorneys settled out of court to keep the worst of it off their record. That's unusual, and one was an addict, which isn't unusual.

I think this thread hit a nerve with some people because a lot of us here have been victims in situations where we needed to deal with attorneys. It's a loaded topic for a lot of people. The amount of money they charge is the main reason that people get so passionate about their opinions. I think it's ironic that this started with an attorney being outraged I suggested someone should get a free half hour in any circumstances. It was hard for me to hold back what my actual experience is, but at this point I have already put myself in a position to where if someone familiar with me joins this site, they'll be able to figure out who I am. I'm not comfortable with that, but I have to let it go.

 

[mamachick]

I dont take it personally at all coco. I have had a similar experience I cant really share, but I was held for a 9 hour deposition while they knew I had severe medical problems and ptsd, which both was made fun of by a cocky overpaid attorney. So I understand your bad experience. I also can say no more .

My daughter is an attorney and she lacks moral character. I dont think she has a conscience. Her older sister is a drug addict and she thinks she is better, but they are exactly the same. Either would throw their own family under the bus, one for drugs, the other for ego, promotion and/or money. She does not realize she is a joke. She works for a firm that represents insurance companies, attempting to assure that those left crippled starve to death or die, so as you can hear, I am told I should be proud of her but am more ashamed than anything due to her personal behavior. She bled me of savings that was for future health care so that she could eat lobster twice a week while in law school.

That is just it, I also agree with everything you are saying about the legal system itself. I just figure that my opinion is not worth making anyone feel bad, and that is not my intent. I am trying to not be one to just smooth things over when I hear conflict, but to be able to be honest about my own experience.

I worked with victims of domestic violence for 10 yrs and believe me, I watched clients beg for pro bono and cant think of one case that it actually happened. Attorneys didnt even like victims much, they seemed to be too much trouble with complications. One attorney who was my friend even dropped a dv client because she feared the ex husband who was a cop, and bought a dog for protection. (everyone not as co dependent as me)

My opinion and comments do not apply to every person in this field, which is why I have used specific examples-good, bad, indifferent, but reality.

My occupation is likely one of the most highly criticized, particularly on this site. Mostly I try to let it roll off my shoulders as I am sure that posters here have genuinely had a bad experience. I know many in the field that are not the greatest. Im sure that even before ptsd, I was suffering from some compassion fatigue and should have taken a break, which I eventually did. But the profession is low pay with a masters degree and I have many collegues with nearly 100K educational debt and salaries of 35-40 K and overworked. I guess I just expect a bit thicker skin from attorneys as they can sure be thick skinned when tearing down those with illness in attempt to get out of paying for injuries caused by their clients. (that is just one area of law-not all)

 

[Rumors]

As someone who has hired a lot of attorneys in my business career, I expect the 30 minutes to make sure it is someone I can work with and that has my best interest at heart. I want to know that we are coming from the same boat on whatever is going on whether it be negotiating a contract, defending a law suit, or for drawing up contracts and agreements. If I am going to drop 30k with someone I want to make damn sure I can at least work with them. It old suck to get 15k in to a law suit to find out your lawyer thinks you don't have a case..... Had that happen.... Lawyers are much like consultants and require vetting. If you are a lawyer and think you are above that then you certainly have lost perspective on the needs of the client. Not everyone can work together, not every client has a case, not every lawyer is looking out for their client.

 

[sedna]

Thank you @brat17

I'm sorry about your daughters too, as a mom that must be tough to make peace with at times. My kids aren't fully adult yet, I'm always eyeballing their character flaws hoping they don't become dominant traits someday. You never know if their good qualities will bubble to the surface someday and change their lives for the better, it's possible.

One of the satisfying aspects of my occupation is that attorneys don't want my input with whoever they're opposing. I've been asked to work as an attorney many times and I won't do it. They always try to convince me that being one of the good guys will make a difference. It doesn't last long in the Gladiator pit with a bunch of jackals. None of the really ethical attorneys stay that way throughout their careers, although I've seen a few very Catholic attorneys do a large amount of pro bono work when they get old. I guess the think the flames of hell are licking at their feet after age 75. :laugh:

I want to get a different career going, I'm not doing my ptsd any favors with what I'm doing now.

It must be really hard to work with domestic violence victims as a job, the red tape and limitations and low pay. It's not valued as much as it should be by the county or state, and like all county jobs its a pain with too many rules to follow. I've volunteered as dv support which gave me the luxury of stepping out when its too hard.

Bless you for making it your life's work brat, you're one of many unsung heroes in our country. :hug:

 

[Friday]

My oldest friend is an attorney. When I rent her brain on a professional matter? I pay her! Granted, usually in booze & chocolate, but just because her field is intellectual doesn't make it not "work". There's something to keeping a friendship-tab full and robust as possible. Whether they're an attorney, a mechanic, a masseuse... If I'm asking them to work for me? I owe them a debt. Whether it's paid off book in the friendship-tab, or in kind/trade, or cash money really all just depends on the nature of the transaction.

When I'm hiring a professional? I expect that once I'm dealing at a certain level of expertise that there will be 'earnest money' involved. Whether we're talking picking up the tab when meeting with someone to ask their opinion, advice, or especially a favor... Or a token retainer (whether that's 200 or 20k, a tiny fraction of the expected bill)... Or "I don't even get out of bed for less than $$$$." Doesn't mean there always is earnest money up front, but I expect there to be.

Once you hit that expertise line... I want them, not the other way around. They're not hungry. I'm the one who has sought them out, and I want their skills, specifically. I want a job done, but not just by anyone. By them. Which means I'm the one courting them (and I've done my homework, or should have, before I start trying to hire them). Whether or not they choose to take me on? Is a process. First they have to agree to the meet. Then hear my proposal, or problem, or job. Then they take me on, or not, at their discretion. I can always change my mind later, decide I don't want to work with them & fire them, but the initial meet? They're the ones in the position of power. They haven't agreed to accept me as a client, yet. They could just as easily be working on something else, billable or fascinating, rather than meeting with some stranger to discuss god knows what... Or if they're going to be spending their time for free? Be doing it with their kids, or catching up with a girlfriend, or any of 1,000 enjoyable not-work activities. Not talking to a stranger about work. :meh:

Below that level of expertise? When a person isn't picking and choosing their clientele, but still building up their practice or reputation? Then, yes, it's more of a mutual thing. I don't need to do my homework before I meet them. There's unlikely to be any earnest money up front. And it's not likely that what I'm hiring them for is that important... In the realm of its a job that can be done by just about anybody in that profession, rather than personal import... So convince me why I should hire you. AKA the client is the one in the position of power during the initial meet.

The upside to being flat broke is that one rarely has expensive problems that require a top notch professional. Have I managed to a time or three? :banghead: Of course I have. Because that's just how my bass ackwards life works. That's a whole 'nother set of problems ... And it's hard as hell to deal with. But in those cases, a free half hour? Pfft. Ain't gonna solve my problems, and would be the very least in what I'm asking someone to do.

 

[Friday]

<chuckling> Although as a note... Most other skilled professionals I know get harassed -by strangers- to provide services free to strangers. ;)

Oh! You're a _______ ???
- Hey doc will you look at this?
- Rub my neck, would you?
- My car is making this funny noise?
- Can you bake me a cake?
- etc.

My grandfather (doctor) had a bit of a sense of humor about it. He'd treat anyone for free, on the spot, if they'd strip down to the boxer shorts in the restaurant/ church/ sidewalk. If not? Make an appointment at my office.

But it seems like only certain professionals get the guilt-trip about how they "should" treat strangers for free, any time, any where... And no matter how much humanitarian or pro bono work they do? It's never "enough" unless they ALSO do abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz AND 123456789 AND blah blah blah blah AND they get paid too much AND whinge bitch moan complain AND... :banghead:

 

[sedna]

<chuckling> Although as a note... Most other skilled professionals I know get harassed -by stranger...

Hands down, the most harassed people I know for free services are hairdressers. For some reason even people they hardly know are shameless about asking for free stuff or discounted products while their anywhere but at work. :yuck:

The comment @Rumors made about the legal advice sums up exactly where I was coming from by the way. It isn't always the ones building a practice that will do a quick mutual interview before any payment. The biggest fish in the pond do that routinely also, they've long made more money than they know what to do with and they already have impressive reputations. They take cases that fascinate them, potential landmark cases, and sometimes just because they like you or they hate the attorney that's suing you, and like to get in dick measuring mode with that attorney in court.

I'm wishing I didnt have to go to work today, 3 hours sleep. :(

 

[mamachick]

They take cases that fascinate them, potential landmark cases, and sometimes just because they like you or they hate the attorney that's suing you, and like to get in dick measuring mode with that attorney in court. :(

So true. Those that have built practice and are successful, dont really need that little fee. I have had an attorney tell me that it would cost more than worth and then do it because the others behavior pissed him off. Definately some ego stuff going on, and likely conscience for weaker or poorer- and do not say that in nasty meaning.

coco-heartbroke about daughter, but must move on, its her life . Can only hope that what I instilled takes effect one day.

I am no hero. I was paid well as I did contractual work for them after getting my masters degree. The system is designed to fail. It requires more professionals and less unskilled workers even with a heart of gold. Operated primarily with grants, meeting quota's. Many don't get adequate services. Its ass backwards. It was good work to do, with a high burnout rate. I am no hero.