Litmus Test For Narcs

[shimmerz]

I went through a weird stage shortly after I was diagnosed. I went out with one guy after another after another. I wasn't looking for a partner. I was looking to see if I could see how I kept falling into relationships with abusers. I called it my science experiment. It was interesting.

One of the guys I saw for a bit was a Swedish guy. We were sitting out on a patio on a beautiful summer day and I asked him 'the question' that had become standard. "What feeds your soul?" He looked at me all dumbfounded like, paused, and with a look of, I am not sure what, crossing his face, he said to me, "Sweetheart I have no f*cking idea what you are talking about." I don't think I realized at the time just how powerful a question that was.

I am hearing consistently as I research, that one of the most difficult questions for a narc to answer is similar to that one but slightly more to the point:

In what ways are you attempting to learn and grow to better yourself?

Many narcs are in a field which looks to be 'of service', and I expect it would take a bit to really dig with those ones because they could call up their work "I am a boy scout leader" for instance. Some would assume perhaps that this is a way they are growing (rather than victimizing or fill the need for their narc supply). That isn't quite an answer to the above question though. And I think some of us get trapped that way. Really pushing the question of how they are learning might be more productive. Something like:

'What do the boys teach you about yourself? How does your service to them help make you a better person?"

Narcs look for their 'supply', who consistently feed the image of the narcs own inherent perfection. If someone were to teach them something, well, that is directly in conflict with what a narc builds in their SELF image. You can't fix perfect right?

I am just wondering what your thoughts are on this. Could it be that easy? That obvious? And if it was that easy - do you think you would be drawn to them anyway (for those of you who have identified this as a pattern in your life)?

 

[Ed Norton]

I'm sorry Shimmerz, I'm not understanding, what is a narc?

 

[shimmerz]

Sorry Ed. Narcissist.

 

[anthony]

Narcissist

Were these people diagnosed Narcissists or your interpretation of what befits one? There is a huge difference between confidence in yourself, in your abilities to do things versus narcissistic tendencies. There's a test for this at psych central, and out of 40 questions, the normal range is 15 - 18 points out of 40, for people to meet. That makes a person confident, ambitious and driven in their strive for whatever it is. Above 20 is narcissistic.

Did you get them to fill out such a test to define the difference?

 

[digger]

"What feeds your soul?"

In what ways are you attempting to learn and grow to better yourself?

I would really struggle to answer these questions if someone asked me them. There are definitely times in my life where I have felt that I'm not learning or bettering myself in any way and not actively doing anything to change that. And 'What feeds your soul?' would throw me and I would probably need to ask for clarification of the question too. As far as I'm aware I'm not a narcissist.

 

[shimmerz]

Were these people diagnosed Narcissists or your interpretation of what befits one?

You are more than welcome to adjust the wording of my post @anthony in whatever way you see fit.

@digger , this is the type of feedback I am looking for. I am not looking for confirmation, I am looking for feedback. I have to ask you though, is doing the work of healing from PTSD not attempting to better yourself?

 

[greenleaf]

Hi @shimmerz, a couple of family members of mine who I am pretty sure had/have other personality disorders, also seemed to never really work on this type of stuff... (I think my mom might have had "dependent" pd, for instance; "being taken care of" seems to have been her answer from my perspective...)

In the U.S., "narc" used to mean a few different things as slang: narcotics police officers; also, someone who turned someone else in for something. Maybe from the 1970s or so?

 

[digger]

I think the problem, as I see it, is that people at the other end of the scale will have difficulty answering these questions too. I think for it to be the litmus test you want it to be, you'd have to be able to identify the root of why someone found those questions difficult to answer. Difficulty in answering them alone is not enough to identify narcissistic traits in someone.

For me the difficulty comes more from a lack of self worth and self esteem rather than a sense of self importance or even just self confidence. It would probably take me days to come up with any answers, I doubt I'd be able to on the spot, and then I'd probably dismiss them all because I'm not worthy of feeling those things ;) If I do manage to allow myself to feel like I'm bettering myself in some way, admitting that to anyone else would be too difficult because upbringing/childhood conditioning would place that as vanity or bragging, ironically maybe given the theme of this thread it would be giving myself too much importance to admit that I thought I was bettering myself :rolleyes:

Would you get to the root of why I found them difficult to answer in the space of a few dates? Very unlikely. If someone I didn't know so well yet asked me those questions I'd likely shrug them off or change the subject. Even if I can find answers to them, I'm not going let you see that much of myself, so soon!

is doing the work of healing from PTSD not attempting to better yourself?

Yes...probably....give me an hour and I'll have fifteen different reasons why that doesn't apply to me though :playful: But seriously, yes, at the moment I would consider the fact that I am in therapy as something I am doing to try and make things better for myself. How many people would I actually share that with? Apart from my therapist I think only two people in my 'real' world know that I'm in therapy and I rarely talk about it with either of them. I don't think I would share that information early in a new relationship or friendship.

 

[scout86]

@shimmerz I would have trouble answering the same questions. I agree that attempting to heal from PTSD is something that can be thought of as "bettering yourself", but it wouldn't leap to my mind fast enough to answer the question. Maybe there IS a litmus test, but I'm not sure what it is. I can see a true narcissist going on about all the wonderful things they are doing to expand the wonderfulness of their wonderful selves.

My T says that a person can be "excessively self involved" without meeting the criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. As @anthony pointed out, these traits exist on a spectrum and "very self confident" is somewhere on the spectrum, short of pathology.

When I think about this (and I do, for good reasons) I've asked myself where, exactly NPD, or any of the traits along that spectrum, get to be a problem for ME. I guess the first place it gets to be a problem is when I find myself talking to someone who can't/won't listen. I like listening to people. I learn stuff that way. But, if I'm actually going to be involved with someone, longer term, I'd also like it if they listened to ME once in awhile and gave me the impression that they are as interested in hearing what I have to say as I am in hearing what THEY have to say. So, that's one of the first things I pay attention to. "Does this person show the ability to be interesting in and value others."

Thinking about your question "What feeds your soul?" or

In what ways are you attempting to learn and grow to better yourself?

A person might find that hard to answer from the "What do you MEAN 'improve'? I'm already perfect!" side of things but also from the "Improve? I'm totally hopeless!" side of things, (To pick the extremes.)

 

[shimmerz]

Difficulty in answering them alone is not enough to identify narcissistic traits in someone.

Yes, and this is valuable information for me @digger. Some balance in the mix. Things are rarely so black and white and this is why I wanted to throw this 'out there' for all of your opinions. I respect them.

a couple of family members of mine who I am pretty sure had/have other personality disorders,

Thank you @greenleaf , yes, there are many types of PD's and although I must keep them all in mind, there is one specific type that I seem to be drawn to.

I am attempting to 'step out' again socially and this is why I am giving this much thought these days. I don't want to fall back into old behaviours and patterns or I will be starting from ground zero once again when the house of cards falls in on me again. All of your input in invaluable in working this out in this 'repatterning' brain of mine.

Maybe from the 1970s

Ah! Got it! So Miami Vice type stuff? :D My apologies for any confusion.

Apart from my therapist I think only two people in my 'real' world know that I'm in therapy and I rarely talk about it with either of them. I don't think I would share that information early in a new relationship or friendship.

Yes. A very valid point. Thanks digger.

I've asked myself where, exactly NPD, or any of the traits along that spectrum, get to be a problem for ME.

Smart. As always.... ;)

"Improve? I'm totally hopeless!"

Ah, yes, I can see this too. I am looking from my POV and I rarely have difficulty seeing this about myself or speaking about it.

See? This is why I love you guys! :giggle:

 

[scout86]

I just want to mention, every time I see "narc" the first thing I think of is exactly what @greenleaf mentioned. LOL

My T likes to say "All this stuff is just traits that exist on a spectrum." He says that about pretty much everything, but is applies here. The way the world is set up, now, to officially have NPD, you need a certain score on a certain test, I guess. My T has also observed that a lot of people who HAVE NPD never that the test because they see no reason to. (There's nothing wrong with THEM, by definition.)

Beyond the label, what about "these people" is a problem for you @shimmerz ? (Hey, you know I know VERY many of the ways, and agree that avoiding "them" is good.) I'm just asking you to spell out problematic traits, because I suspect a lot of people who don't score high enough to earn a NPD label are still difficult to deal with.

 

[Deleted member 28942]

@shimmerz i believe following your intuition about someone is better then intellectualizing. I believe some narcs would be able to give you the answer you want to hear because narcs are manipulators. I am saying this from personal experience with a narc friend. When he would sense I'm on his track he would "change" and say the right things even sounds modest and truthful.