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Looking For Info On How Add And Ptsd 'work' Together

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Pretty much the same here in Canada.

any thoughts on ADHD and PTSD...unalla???

To be honest, I hadn't really put much thought until recently how these two diagnoses relate to each other, other than experientially. Let me try to explain. In my professional life, I have had many clients that had diagnoses of both ADD and PTSD. My focus as a T has long been to assist my clients in coping with their particular stresses and to increase their quality of life, if possible. To my mind, I look at diagnoses as an aid to increase understanding, as part of the larger puzzle that is an individual. Sometimes the pieces of the puzzle fit well, and at other times they really don't and that is an indicator that there is more there that needs to be examined. I might use a "working diagnosis" to appease the insurance companies who insist on a diagnosis for reimbursement, but I'm not necessarily convinced that this is the problem(s) we are dealing with and I operate under the assumption that the diagnosis will change and be further refined as treatment progresses. In the short run, to me it is more of a concern to address the area(s) that brought the person into treatment in the first place as this usually the area that they are experiencing the most distress, and less of a concern to address a diagnosis that may be having less of an impact on the person at that particular moment.

I have been in and out of T myself since i was about 12 years old, mostly to deal with a current distress of one kind or another. I've had a variety of diagnoses over the years, depression and PTSD are the two that have stuck for the longest. I was diagnosed with ADD almost three years ago, and so were my sons. The behaviors/symptoms were present long before the diagnosis, however it took another severe trauma for those it to be identified as related to ADD.

The ADD diagnosis came after my oldest son severely burned his legs accidentally and was hospitalized on a burn unit for 29 days. He received a lot of attention for that action - more than he wanted, I'm sure - and also had to undergo a variety of psychological interviews and testing because they wanted to ascertain his motivations for putting himself in a position where he hurt himself so badly. In short - was he a danger to himself and/or others? They found the answer to those questions were more complicated than they bargained for.

I've mentioned in other places in the forum that my sons have been dealing with PTSD for most of their lives. I won't reiterate that here. They have been in and out of T for a long time. My oldest also has been dealing with another burden since age 10 and that is he nearly died from ketoacidosis just prior to being diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. That was another traumatic event in his life that has profoundly effected they way he looks at himself and how he deals with those in the medical establishment.

So back to when he burned his legs. His blood sugar had been high for a number of months. He had been acting out. He was doing poorly in school. He admitted to smoking some pot and skipping school. He had been immersing himself in building things and reading about how to build things on the internet. He and a friend had made a type of fuel and lit it. My son was stomping it out when it flared up on his legs and burned him. That was not what they expected to happen. It was an experiment gone awry. His friend was not hurt and luckily had the presence of mind to get help. It could have been so much, much worse.

After the burns were addressed, his doctors were having a hard time figuring out precisely what was behind my son's acting up behaviors - whether it was solely a blood sugar issue, normal teenage rebellion, PTSD or other diagnosis, something else or some combination of two or more of these elements.

The doctors addressed my son's diabetes first, as it was thought that was the most immediately life threatening. They conducted psychological tests on him and interviewed him, me and my son's father. The lengthy medical and social histories that they gathered from us was something that had not happened previously, and lent support to some possible heredity issues being factors in what was going on with him. The diabetes, depression, and ADD being a couple of those factors.

It was found, eventually, that my son was not a danger to himself or others, thank goodness. The doctors identified that he has issues with dealing with his diabetic self-care, but what teenage boy wouldn't resist having to take shots four times a day? This was not news, but we were glad that he found more support in dealing with it in the day to day. The most interesting thing this experience illuminated was that they recognized that my son hyperfocusses on things that interest him. We had been saying this for years, but no one seemed to hear it until then. He hyperfocusses at the exclusion of other normal every day activities like eating. There were other indicators that pointed toward ADD as well that I won't go into here but were equally interesting. After the doctors diagnosed ADD, it started to make sense to my son why he did some of the things he did and he was able to better articulate what was going on with him. He has tried medication with some success. He has decided to go without for the time being and is supported by his T.

This diagnosis helped his brother as well. My younger son has always had difficulty with what I call "insert thought, out the mouth" - he was constantly getting in trouble for talking in class, to the teachers, classmates, for not being able to sit still. No one suggested ADD because frankly, it generally was attributed to the already identified PTSD, but every year we were going back to the school to write yet another behavior plan to address his impulsive behaviors. After his brother's burn event, the ADD was put on the table as a possible way of understanding and dealing with some of his behaviors. It really has helped reframe his school experience in a more positive way, to my mind. Medication was helpful to him as well, but then he developed some stomach issues recently that has made him stop all medication. He is conscious of the difference and wants this to be straightened out quickly.

As for me, my T watched these events unfold and come to some sort of stability, and then she suggested that we examine ADD and how it relates to me. Which we did, at length. She was able to help me see that some of my "fogginess" was not just PTSD but something else, that something else being ADD which can and is being addressed with non-stimulant medication. Seems to work for me. :)

Sorry for the lengthy response! I hope I made some sense...
 
Thanks for the great responses.

I agree that the diagnosis are over simplified due to how fully science understands the brain. Moreover the mind is even more complex. Bring into it social and other factors its no doubt we don't have a med that solves the issues. Maybe when we understand the brain fully there will be or a reaffirmation that it cant be fixed through meds indicated by a DSM diagnosis. For me it does lend some insight into how one disorder may play into and exacerbate another.

I've always wondered why some with traumatic experiences place them selves in the path for more. I saw this a lot working in addictions. I now see that the vicarious traumatisation of my work as well as the life threatening situations or potentially, that were inherent in the population, I served were in many ways satisfying. Despite triggering my PTSD symptoms. Now i have been out of the field for sometime the PTSD is more problematic. At times consuming me. There are current threats namely to my sons life that I live with. Or try to have a life within. As you may have experienced the ptsd is very stimulating. The same stuff over and over and over. Beyond my cognitive abilities to squelch. The less 'action' in my life seems to bring on the ptsd symptoms(flash backs, anxiety). Action being somewhat synonymous with trauma or its expectancy.

When I look at this, from the ADHD/PI(ADD) point of view, I can see how I may have been living the trauma to bring about enough stimulation to find relief from the ADD. Finding a level of comfort in the trauma. A renationalisation from my point of view. I have brought some of the trauma upon my self in seeking an elevated level of mental activity to calm myself for a little while.

Despite years of T with some very competent T's I only found relief in the short term. I found EMDR to be the most beneficial for coming to terms with historical trauma only to re-endue more. One T told me to get out of the line of work I was in. That was devastating as I felt that work fit me to a 'T'. I had other work before that that paid a lot more and had more prestige; I felt unfulfilled. Was also more symptomatic of PTSD and would sabotage to get the stimulus to a level I could feel better.

It's hard to know what is a normal state of mind when you have spent your whole life with ADD and most of it with PTSD. Being unaware of family history of ADHD it was never pursued. I got teased a few times by staff as I'd have to have music on and usually up. One day I had Bat out of Hell cranked a little to loud. One of my docs stuck his head out the door called my name and said '...turn down the Meatloaf..' . The place erupted in laughter. Hasn't all been without fun.

I see from looking at some basic studies there is a hypothesis that ADHD makes one more susceptible to PTSD. As there is a significant co-morbidity in children. My hope is that by calming the ADHD I can get a hold of the PTSD and some sustained relief.
 
Do some research for yourself on over-diagnosis ADHD and PTSD, and draw your own conclusions on the statistics modelled to date. Statistics don't lie... they also are not subjective, they are statistical. When you do such research, you will find the statistics result backwards to psychologists, not psychiatrists. Psychiatrists get it wrong much less than psychologist... vast difference in statistical numbers actually based on studies performed by putting coached persons in front of such qualifications for specific diagnoses.

Scholar PTSD overdiagnosis, ADHD overdiagnosis, etc, key terms... research for yourself. Not opinion, statistics tell a far different story on who is getting it right, who is getting it wrong, what specific diagnoses are over-diagnosed and even trends based on what pharmaceutical companies decide to push upon physicians for prescription. It is ugly statistical information you are going to find.

Research for yourself, there is zero point me doing it for you... because you keep thinking it is opinion, not statistical data. The research hasn't changed much over the last five years. A slight decrease in prescribed medications, based on people finally working out most medications for mental illness do you more harm than good, for themselves.

There are already empirically validated studies contained in references on this sites wiki pages.
 
I wonder, at least for myself, if the ADD didn't make me more vulnerable to PTSD. I don't know what a normal state of mind feels like either, but I do know that I am able to think more clearly when I'm focusing on taking care of myself - getting enough sleep, eating well, taking meds, exercise, etc. and all that. I am easily over stimulated at the best of times (and most of that is in my own head). Oddly enough it seems like I am drawn to chaos in the world because I can focus on that better than I can on the noise going on in my head, and focusing on that seems to lessen my own personal chaos.

Huh. At any rate it gets me thinking...
 
I hear yu on the chaos. I've been very reflective as of late and yeah alot of chaos. To keep my little busy. I'd concentrate on others and their chaos, could feel for them but not myself. Many ways to hide this stuff, eh? Co-depandant with the world?
 
Do some research for yourself on over-diagnosis ADHD and PTSD, and draw your own conclusions on the statistics modelled to date. Statistics don't lie... they also are not subjective, they are statistical. When you do such research, you will find the statistics result backwards to psychologists, not psychiatrists. Psychiatrists get it wrong much less than psychologist... vast difference in statistical numbers actually based on studies performed by putting coached persons in front of such qualifications for specific diagnoses.

You have a valid point, Anthony and frankly, I don't disagree about psychiatrists and not psychologists getting it right more often than not.

However statistics measure a finite amount of variables and do not take into account the context in which psychiatrists practice, or psychologists' for that matter. The context makes a huge difference in the outcomes.

I don't pretend to know how mental health system works in anywhere but the United States, and it quite likely is different elsewhere. But here in the US, we have a psychiatrist shortage. Psychiatrists are in high demand to provide medication management and little else. As I mentioned earlier, it is not uncommon for a person seeking mental health medication to get it from their family doctor. Doctors who are likely not as well schooled in psychotropic medications as those who specialized in psychiatry.

Do I think this is the way it should be? No, certainly not but it is the context for which some treatment is obtained. We have far more psychologists, counselors, social workers and other graduate level counselors that provide the bulk of mental health care and therapy in this country. Not all providing therapy have a working relationship with a psychiatrist, either - so is the margin of error high for incorrect diagnoses? Of course it is - how could it not be in this context?
 
I hear yu on the chaos. I've been very reflective as of late and yeah alot of chaos. To keep my little busy. I'd concentrate on others and their chaos, could feel for them but not myself. Many ways to hide this stuff, eh? Co-depandant with the world?

I like that, Freefloat -"codependant with the world". ;) ...and yes, it seems we may handle our crap similarly.

I think I've learned a little, though - I don't tackle everything that I'm confronted with anymore and I am content to let it go or pass it on to someone better able to handle the situation than I could. And I do take time to myself to work on me. That used to be at the bottom of a very long list of things to do...
 
I have so much piled up its nuts. Including me. Hopefully the meds will get me more productive. Seems I run into a wall where time disappears and nothing gets done. On the learning curve........
 
I know that wall - why is it that it appears exactly when anxiety kicks in? Once anxiety comes to visit, he doesn't like to go back from whence he came... and such an awful house guest, too! I really wish he'd learn to pick up after himself...;)
 
I'd like to add just two points to this conversation. The first is about bias and the second about 'group think'.

Firstly, I agree with Anthony whole heartily. Statistics are what needs to be looked at, particularly where control samples are used to validate data. The samples should also be well constructed. There is a lot of theorizing that goes on in psychology, PhDs are no different. Any theory should be supported by qualitative and quantitative evidence. Unalaa, you are a psychologist and I completely respect that, but you may be viewing the world from your stand point to some extent.

I agree with you that holistic care is important, but lets look at the difference in the qualifications required for a psychiatrist. They are able to diagnose and make the difficult decision about when brain altering drugs should be used. We develop a 'relationship' with psychologists because that is what happens when you talk for hours everyweek and this is beneficial and my psychologist feeds information back to my psychiatrist, and my psychiatrist keeps my GP up to date as do I. This is holistic therapy, and all three working together does have great benefits.

But lets not down play what a psychiatrist has to do to be qualified (5 year medical degree, 2 years of post grad training, completed a 6 year specialist degree, and then ongoing training). That's 13 years of training just to be qualified!!!!! From undergrad, hons/ research masters, to Phd, 7 years is the norm! Psychiatrists need this amount for training because they are the ones who take responsibility for messing with our brains! Anyone who suggests that a psychiatrist is not the most qualified person to diagnose and medicate, is being quite disrespectful in my mind.

I would not want a psychologist diagnosing me, helping me yes, but even with a PhD (and I respect those with PhDs which is why I am starting mine) they are not the right person to diagnose. PhDs don't really have the clinical time let alone the years of extensive training to give them the ability to diagnose. That is why they have to have a letter from a clinical psychiatrist that says what their samples are diagnosed with, to ensure validity of their research. So....back to psychiatrists again.

So, be careful about your own biases here, and just because you develop relationships with psychologists because they spend time with you, does not mean they are the best or most qualified to diagnose - yes you must trust them, but logically you should take any diagnosis from them with a grain of salt. If they want that responsibility, then they need to put in the time and effort with training. So, I still side with Anthony and neither of your arguments to the contrary have swayed my thinking. Despite how awesome my psychologist is.

Second point. 'Group think'. There seems to be a pattern in both your families where individuals have claimed ADHD and that has been expanded to all members of your family based on a couple of behaviors. I know quite a bit about NPD, and often these 'labels' are used to degrade and hide/ deflect from what the real problem is, those with NPD (a brain scan ordered and read by a psychiatrist can detect certain psychological problem by the way). If we learn behaviors from our family because we spend the most time with them, then we pick up behaviors from them (this is behavioral science one-on-one you learn in a psychology undergrad).

Then there is also 'group think' (from sociology components of a psychology undergrad), where individuals can conform to their environment and accept conditions of other family members, or simply reiterate the uneducated persons 'complaint' of a condition, without the investigation of a qualified psychiatrist. Effectively, you end up telling these professional problems you have based on what your other family members have complained about...not about what is actually going on.

Frankly, if my parents were NPD (they are something else) I would have ants in my pants too, because of the anxiety alone! Is that ADHD??? I don't think so. I could not leave the house, and I jittered so much and could not sit still when I was unwell, and even if I did sit still my hands and legs would not stop, when I was really unwell, this was because of the anxiety alone. I do not have ADHD.

Freefloat, you are very confrontational and maybe you should have a think about biases, group think and why you are initiating a fight response in this situation. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and can vent, rant or rave, but sometimes it can be wiser to take a step back and just consider what others have to say. Reassess what is going on, and maybe with so many different diagnosis, they haven't quite worked out what your condition is yet.

So a new assessment from the most qualified in the industry (a psychiatrist) could be a wise move and a good recommendation from Anthony...? You're looking for answers, and the recommendation is to go to the right sources for a diagnosis and read research articles...why are you scared of getting a qualified diagnosis and fighting this idea so much? At least consider the information which has been provided to you, after all that is what you asked for...information, and that is what you were provided with much to your unhappiness.

PS
 
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