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Losing My Faith In God.

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@void - just tossing an idea out there as you work through some of these issues you've encountered in your experience...

I've had a lot of people explain to me that "faith" = believing, without having to have proof.

With that thought in mind, maybe (just maybe, really really this is just an idea I've had!), the reason you get the mood change when you question people's faith (reason for it, rationalising it, etc etc), is exactly the same sort of thing going on for them as it is for you when you describe how important it is for you to be able to rationalise existence.

Just an observation- you seem pretty passionate about the importance of science, logic, reason etc. Maybe what you're receiving is exactly the same passion, just for an alternative belief system and way of thinking about and understanding the world...
 
@void - just tossing an idea out there as you work through some of these issues...
@Ragdoll Circus

Hmmmm.....:happy:

So are you saying that they passionately desire to have NO rationale for their belief, in the exact(but opposite) way that I passionately desire to have a rationale for what I believe??????

....and that they react negatively because my suggestion that evidence/proof/reason/logic has value, conflicts with their belief that they must reject all evidence/proof/reason/logic in favor of an exclusive "leap of faith"????

Please clarify.

....and thank you:happy:
 
@void - something like that. Seems to me that regardless of whether you're coming from a position of science or faith, the way that you see and understand the world seems to be pretty important and personal, regardless of which side of the fence you're on...

And for the record, I'm happily sitting right on top of the fence:)
 
@glass half full stated
"I've wondered about this... I've asked too, but my question was...


Hi Void- so, to what do I attribute the reluctance to discuss the free will question? Just my guess, but I think insecurity about their own belief system, regardless of how adamant they are about their own certainty. I know several people of strong faith, in fact one of my co-workers is one of them. She is gentle, kind person who deeply enjoys sharing her faith with others. I've found some her analogies to be beautiful and very comforting and she neither argues faith with others or tries to push hers. I consider her to be a true Christian.

On the other hand, I have a family member who does try to push it. I also have a terminally ill family member and she has had the absolutely awful taste to say that she has fears that my ill relative will go to hell because she's not been born again. Frankly the ill relative is an Infinitely nicer person and I can't believe a god would do anything other than welcome her with open arms when the time comes.

The fundie relative has a very rigid personality and needs yes or no/ right or wrong answers and has all her life. I believe her rigidity demands a rigid god and if she even begins to think about logical questions she feels she's on a slippery slope to hell.

Example- one day I asked if she believed an an all powerful god. Well, of course she does. God can do anything. So, I asked if she believes that reincarnation is possible? Of course she does not, because the Bible says nothing about it. Ok. Well, I think the Bible DOES mention reincarnation- how about Lazarus and Jesus himself? Both cane back from the dead. If that's not reincarnation, I don't know what is. I also pointed out that if she believes in an all powerful god- literally that meant anything is possible, including reincarnation.

She could not get there. She could not even consider the possibility, even though her own position totally lacked any logic. Recent studies have begun to show that certain personality types gravitate to fundamental religious beliefs- whether Christian or other. I think there's a lot of validity to that, from my own experience with fundies.

But back to your question- I think they are insecure and afraid of questioning their own beliefs because emotionally they must have a right or wrong answer about things. Personally, I enjoy playing with concepts, its a wonderful way to expand my own thinking. But I do not have an authority seeking personality.
 
Just putting in my two cents to a heated subject; sin causes death, destruction, illness, suffering... The people that hurt and tortured us had a sin problem. God did not want them to hurt us. That's my take on it. He wants to be invited into people's lives to help people not hurt others and will not force himself on us; we choose. Jesus' example; let you without sin cast the first stone, love God, Love one another, love your enemies. I believe the message was love and to not kill o torture... When the pain from PTSD is so... Bad, I cycle out of it and feel God is mean... I feel it's the pain talking but who knows... It's an important issue; all I know is I keep falling and he seems to keep taking me back and that's love and forgiveness. Hope you have brighter days and feel better!!! This PTSD crap sucks to hell but you are not PTSD and God is not PTSD and thank God we die someday and are free from this; it is temporary and it gets better sometimes at least for a time. Hugs and love to you; I am sooooo sorry about your cat. I have lost a cat too; like a daughter to me. It's not easy!!! I am happy that my cat is free from suffering and pain and try to feel the love that never leaves me and that even death can't take away.
 
In my experience churches in general aren’t very good at dealing with hard. Let alone dealing with someone who is going through something as hard as PTSD, or any other mental health issue I’d imagine. In my opinion for a bunch of reasons you can blame them for & also for a bunch of reasons that you really can’t. Unfortunately it is what it is. And these are good people I’m talking about. The arseholes that you find anywhere & everywhere are found there in churches too, but I figure they’re self-explanatory.

If you really want to know the truth, I would suggest looking for the individual(s) who possess wisdom rather than just knowledge alone. And better still a church that values them rather than silences them. For me, as soon as I thought ‘but you don’t understand’, I knew I was talking to the wrong person & to continue never fared well for me. Right or wrong I had reached the end of their knowledge & it was time to seek out a better source.

Joyce Meyer has been a great source for me. One of a few I can access without having to attend a church & I believe her background is one of abuse. I can’t think of a time off the top of my head that I ever felt that she had no idea what she is talking about. I have thought from time to time that I don’t agree entirely with her, but she is definitely one of the rare ones who tends to have real answers for real problems.

I don’t say this to convince you to start listening to her or anyone else’s teachings, but rather should your case be more of a people problem rather than a God problem I wanted to illustrate that there are others & other ways that can help.

I hear you & where your at. It’s hard to accept that with His power, why He doesn’t always seem to use it. But it’s because he keeps his promise not to force anyone to do anything they don’t want to do, that you can trust that he will & does stand behind all his other promises as well. If someone truly wants to hurt you, he will not force them to do something they do not want to do. Not because it’s right but because he keeps his word. But that doesn’t mean he leaves us alone. And partly that is where we come in. There’s a Mathew West song, Do Something that I really enjoy. Not just because it has an uplifting message but also because I don’t feel quite as alone in my frustrations with the church & my faith, etc. Basically the point is that God didn’t create ‘man’ only for His own benefit but also for the benefit of us all & each other. And we’re just not utilising that potential anywhere near what we could be.

And when ‘man’ fails, as we often do, we are also created by design to fracture/splinter, dissociate, compartmentalise, create emotional parts, etc. & so on, so that we may survive the un-survivable. Much like a modern day car is designed to crumple around it’s passengers in order to absorb the shock of the impact. Of course God didn’t design us to be able to fall apart without a way of putting us back together. The answers are there in the Bible & thankfully science, research & technology, in a lot of ways already has & is catching up. PTS is not the problem, it holds the keys to the healing solution. PTSD (the disorder) is only when we get stuck somewhere during the healing process of PTS. It’s not about curing the symptoms of PTS, it’s about getting unstuck within this healing process. PTS (or PTSD) was never designed to be a destination. It was & is designed to be a through. More of a case of ‘yes it is wrong, but don’t worry I have provided an answer for it, do the work so that you can get on with the living of your life the way it was intended’. And the answers are available both within & outside of the church. Preferably a combination of both. Of course this is a concept in its simplest form & by no way easy. And what stops us the most is fear, not whether it has anything to do with it being possible or not.

This is my truth & this is what I believe. Again I don’t say this to tell you what you should believe or do or that I’m right & you’re wrong. I have no idea what is best for you. But I do know this. The single determining factor that will decide who you are & what life you have will be according to what you choose to believe.

I have had the privilege of working with some great leaders in the field of PTSD & read some of their research. Some of their notions & findings are at odds with some of the ideas I find in this forum. At odds with terms like lifelong, permanent damage, more resistant strains, more severe types of ‘severe’ trauma or types of PTSD, etc. In fact, as I was rummaging through the data of one study I came across statistics for: a) Criterion A participants & b) Non-Criterion A participants (hmmm controversy??). Not even a hint of debate or discussion about it. These guys in particular have received worldwide recognition & accolades for the work they are doing. The Australian Government funds a program to help PTSD sufferers based on their findings. I believe someone from Beyond Blue sits on their board as well as other local & international partnerships. All very above board. On a separate & independent approach to my recovery I worked with a Clinical Psychologist who interestingly enough shared similar views (coincidence??).

As a result of working with these guys & in conjunction with my own faith, I honestly can’t tell you the last time I had to deal with a symptom of PTS. Stress maybe. After all, there’s no escaping life’s problems. And I haven’t qualified for a PTSD diagnosis in years. I really enjoy my life & wake up wanting to get stuck into it. The future months & years hold very exciting times ahead. All of which I genuinely want to be a part of. And I feel whole & that nothing about me has been lost or not given back to me.

My point is this. I do not believe what I believe because of the people or evidence that I came across, but rather that I came across the evidence & people that I found because of what I believed.

My prayer for you is this. I hope & pray that you choose wisely when deciding what it is that you do want to believe in & that is in line with what you really want to get out of life. And may you have the strength, courage & conviction to change your beliefs when or if it proves not to be serving you very well.

And yes there are animals in heaven. A reference that comes to mind I believe is in Revelations when talking about the trumpets & people riding down from heaven on the back of horses or something to that effect. I’m pretty sure there are some other references, but the short answer is yes there are animals in heaven.

Take care & God bless.
 
passionately desire to have NO rationale for their belief, in the exact(but opposite) way that I passionately desire to have a rationale for what I believe??????
This sort of implies that faith is not rational, and to have faith you have to throw wanting rationale out. For some, faith is the rationale. They need a reason, just as much as you, and faith is that logical answer for them to these big questions of life. For example, people really want a reason for why bad things happen. For some, the faith that there is good and evil in the world, and the bad things are a result of evil, that is the reason, the rational, for why there is evil. It's not an absence of logic and rationale - but it's different rationale.

And when we take a step back and look at it, the fact that we can call anything reason, and anything not something of reason, indicates that there are absolutes in life. There fact that we can call anything good or anything bad (outside of what is good and bad, which people disagree on from time to time) indicates we have this innate sense of a perfect. We have a sense that things can fall sense of perfect (even if we disagree on what is reason, good, or perfect). I think all humans have a standard they want life to match up to.

For me, that hints at the existence of God. For me, that is one of the reasons I believe there is a God. For others, not so much.
 
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