My Valium Experiment

[anthony]

Interested.

I've stopped my daily dose though now. I have 2mg tablets around as a just in case, though I don't take it daily any more. My experiment allowed me to take the edge off long enough to get my head back in the game and get my body back under control.

I now only use it when going away, doing things that may make anxious.

 

[Shellbell]

My doc knows I am scared stiff of the addictive medication like valium and xanax. It scares the :poop: out of me thinking I'll be addicted to them, have to take them long term and all the problems weaning off them :eek:

So my doc doesn't like prescribing those anyway, and I'm on Mirtazapine and Seroquel (50mg), but I wonder whether becoming reliant on these is just as bad?

 

[piratelady]

I am giving my body time without it as well, because the long-term affects if abused are catastrophic.

This comment of yours makes me nervous (for myself). I recently had a problem with cluster headaches again. I went into our walk-in clinic, since my doctor had no appointments, for a course of Prednisone (it stops the cluster headaches). As we were talking about the headaches, and how some of my headaches are a result of muscle tension in the neck (that's where I carry my stress), he suggested I ask my doctor for a muscle relaxant to take every night. I don't know, it just seems odd for me to go to the doctor and ask for medications like that. Especially with the high potential to become addicted and abuse the medication. Anyway, I'm still on the fence about it.

 

[Flossy]

Great.
1. The differences with and benefits of valium over serepax for this use.
I am interested in whether you have tried a trial of Serepax and if there was a specific reason for the trial of Valium as opposed to Serepax. Eg: Valium can be a less obvious effect, but a longer lasting effect.

I agree that it is the anxiety that causes most of the major symptoms of PTSD rather than depression, therefore SSRI's will not be of use.

I have also challenged this with long term experiments with raising Serotonin levels through large doses of Tryptophan and Phenylalanine, with no result

My reporting to doctors that my symptoms seemed to be related to a problem with adrenaline went ignored.
These symptoms ranged from panic attacks, severe heart palpitations & many rapid exits from shopping centres leaving full trolley loads of groceries to get the hell out of the lights, noise and movement......to being physically unable to rise from my bed or couch and a sense of paralysis and inability/unwillingness to speak even if I wanted to. I believe this was caused by fluctuations in adrenaline or it's precursor Noradrenaline.

The paralysis and inability/unwillingness to speak or move from a severe lowering of adrenaline.
The panic attacks and heart symptoms from surges of adrenaline.

I cannot find any research of note specifically talking about damaged adrenal glands and PTSD, but then I have not looked lately.


2. SNRI's and PTSD = Pristiq, Effexor & Edronax which affects Noradrenaline only

SNRI's (Pristiq & Effexor are SNRI's) Selective Noradrenaline Reuptake Inhibitors.
Effexor gives a one-hit blast to inhibit reuptake therefore giving a hit or adrenaline that does not last 24 hours. EG: the effect is inconsistent.

Pristiq is slow-release and comes in two doses 50mg and 100mg. The active ingredient is released through the casing of the square shaped capsule as it moves through the gut. It takes 24 hours to pass through and the casing is released in the bowel motion. EG: the effect is consistent and constant.

My experience is that beginning Pristiq two and a half years ago was the beginning of the gradual reversal of my extreme PTSD symptoms.

I have never had Pristiq suggested by my MD's and one has even said that it is not "pushed' by the medical sales people.

After meeting a colleague who is a MD and suffers severe mental health issues, I learned about another
noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor, Edronax. Edronax is a drug that is not mentioned or well known.

Edronax comes in a 4mg small white tablet and can be started at a level of 2mg AM. I found this gave an immediate lifting of remaining symptoms. By immediate I mean that same day as I first took it. This lifting continued. When I was under extra pressures dealing with my narcissistic family members and going through the process of establishing No Contact status with them, I increased the dose to 4mg.

When the crisis was over, I stopped the Edronax. There was no withdrawal period, none was necessary and there were absolutely no side effects from stopping for me.

I am not sure how much consideration is given to the SNRI's and Edronax with regard to PTSD and I think it is worth discussing with personal physicians. Note: Edronax is not slow release and has an immediate effect, with no apparent side effects, at least for me. I have even considered trialling just that without the Pristiq. Even more so after reading this thread.

I hope I have not repeated stuff you already knew well and I hope it is of interest to you.

With regard to your chest pain. I get a similar pain/constriction/lump in my throat. I had it many years ago and was told by a shrink to scream into a pillow. I have never been able to vomit. Some therapists would link it to a 'silencing' of voice etc. I prefer to see it as a response of the muscles in my throat to my hyper-reactive nervous system. The throat as osophegus is made of sphincter-like muscles that are designed to contract and relax in response to nerve signals. Surely an overreactive nervous system would fire intermittently until the muscles in the throat and further down into the gullet would not get the signal to relax.

This is what works for me, when I can make my brain remember to do it and be stuffed to carry it through.
I get in the shower, because it is private and the posture is not a good look.
-I bend over from the waist
-Open my mouth and throat as wide as I can
-Stick my tongue right out as far as it will go
- Then make a noise that is a cross between a low guttural scream and something that you would have heard in an Exorcism movie.
- I do it for as long as I can maintain the breath it takes...one long go. It makes me gag and cough.
- Then I do it again. Then again. I almost throw up but not quite. By the time I have done it three times the pain has gone and does not come back until next time (at least not for days).

I hate it and it is a nuisance to perform this weirdo ritual but it works. I wonder if your pain is the same constriction, just lower down in the gullet.

I thought it was worth mentioning and would be interested if you try it and what you feel.

Congratulations on your new look site. You were busy working on the establishment of this and the combat PTSD site & Sexual Abuse site when I was last active. You have done such a great service for sufferers world-wide. I was sorry to read that Nicolette has been ill lately. I hope she is well recovered.

A major factor I learned through your training which I have carried with me always and passed on to others who were interested is to "ask for clarification" before assuming or reacting or responding. Such a valuable learning tool in the goal of becoming a productive well-adjusted adult, which we all strive to be. Thank You.

 

[Flossy]

PS. With regard to Serepax, Valium and addiction. I took 15 mg of Serepax every night for over two years.
Along with the SNRI's. When the crisis of my family was seen through by the use of this as a tool to give me some respite from the stress of that intense battle I found I could easily reduce it to a quarter and then to nothing easily. I too, was and still am very wary of addiction. I no longer fear it.

I had a recent very stressful bout of unrelated illness and took it again for a couple of months. Then cut it out over a week or two.

I have no experience of Valium.

 

[anthony]

Looking at Serepax, I think either would do the job, as both are benzo's. As for SNRI's, I steered clear of them because it still targets serotonin, which there are now more studies proving that there is no serotonin imbalance that pharmaceutical companies claim causes depression, by targeting the synapses. SSRI's and SNRI's just go about it a different way.

Benzo's have nothing to do with serotonin. Do a search for studies on serotonin and most of what pharmaceutical companies have professed over the years is completely inaccurate for treatment of anxiety and depression. More physicians are opting towards even natural treatment options first, before such medications, often making a person more depressed. They still have a working score, though that score has been significantly lowered to below 30% success, from their claimed 60% - 70% success rates for SSRI / SNRI studies.

That is why I went with benzo's. Again, take your pick of them. I went with valium because it is lower dose, fast acting, and at the lower dose I could do a dual daily dose, still keeping under Serepax minimum 5mg dose. I think Serepax is 10mg minimum daily dose required. Pick your poison really IMHO... either or would do the job. Serepax is probably the lesser evil of the two for some side effects, though they near mimic one another overall. Both have little chance of side effects, other than addiction being the primary one.

 

[Britt.f7]

I was under the impression that not all medicines cause you to develop intolerance to them. Valium may be one of those.

Valium causes me to sob uncontrollably. Needless to say they won't give me that or any other drug that is in the same category as Valium. Limits me to what I can take for anxiety. Apparently 1 in 100 develop this side effect. Lucky me. ;)

 

[Flossy]

Anthony, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on using a Benzos only with PTSD. I understand that the studies have shown that depression is not necessarily a part of PTSD and depression related to PTSD could be a result of the long term anxiety.

I experience a type of depression where I lose the desire to move and talk. I had told myself that the causes could be stated the following way.

Lack of desire to move and talk = lack of adrenaline
Panic attacks = surges of adrenaline
= Both states due to adrenal gland out of whack due to traumas and the flight or flight response. The adrenal gland producing not enough adrenaline one minute, then surges of it the next minute.

To try to make it clear so that you can give me your opinion, I am trying to find which drug will help which symptom.

If I could get away with taking Benzos only. Perhaps low dose Valium AM long term and a Xanax for a crisis situation, that would be ideal. Perhaps, as you have said it would be enough to allay the onset of depression.

The point I would really like your opinion on is suicidal ideation and what state that could be linked to. I have always thought of it as linked to depression. I had depression long before PTSD, but only developed SI after PTSD.

Can you, if you feel up to it and it interests you, give me some bullet point ideas you have on the link to SI.

I guess my base question is :-
1. Do you believe it is possible that Benzos can stop the downward spiral into depression which does seem to go from Continuing and elevating Anxiety = Depression.
2. Do you believe SI falls within the depressed state or a state of anxiety?

In my experience, it falls within the depressed state. Never when highly anxious. So I am wondering if SI (and depression) truly can be avoided in PTSD with anti-anxiety meds only.

3. Do you think it happens when the anxiety is under control?
4. Did you experience any SI while doing your Valium experiment?
5. Any less than beforehand?

I have an elderly friend who had a breakdown many years ago. She was given a Benzo a day for the last 30 years. She does not experience depression or SI. She does walk huge distances every day.

Feel free to give a yes/no response to each question if it is simpler.

 

[anthony]

Hey @Flossy,

I found the valium controlled the anxiety in PTSD better than an SSRI, which just so happened to also control the depression for the most part. Today, and for quite a while since doing this experiment, I have taken very little valium as a result. If my PTSD starts to spiral, I do take one to curb it.

Suicidal Ideation (SI) is a little different. I found a bout of this a while back without feeling anxious, but I was enduring depression. Valium helped curb things overall, however; I found getting out and active did the most good for me overall.

1. Do you believe it is possible that Benzos can stop the downward spiral into depression which does seem to go from Continuing and elevating Anxiety = Depression.

Yes, I do believe it can curb the spiral into depression, however; I also believe your body will get used to valium quite quickly and thus you find a different problem, being increasing dosage OR finding a better alternative to keeping depression under control.

2. Do you believe SI falls within the depressed state or a state of anxiety?

The depressed state, without question. If you can keep the anxiety under control from getting into that depressed state, then you have a better chance IMO from reaching SI.

3. Do you think it happens when the anxiety is under control?

The problem with depression is that it is independent of anxiety... so yes, I think it can happen even if your anxiety is under control. I believe the bouts are less frequent and possibly less excessive if the anxiety is under control, but depression is depression and is a result of PTSD.

4. Did you experience any SI while doing your Valium experiment?

I don't remember any... and if I did, I would have written it in the prior posts of this thread.

5. Any less than beforehand?

I have much less issue with symptoms today than I used to, though much of that is because I know how to now manage myself daily. Stay active, exercise daily, keep my mind active and focused on different things, and when I start to feel depression and anxiety creeping upon me, take action to keep stress minimal, chill out and do some really relaxing things and such, rest and recuperate, then get active again as quickly as possible.

I have an elderly friend who had a breakdown many years ago. She was given a Benzo a day for the last 30 years. She does not experience depression or SI. She does walk huge distances every day.

That more than likely has more to do with the daily walking than anything else. It could actually be a combination. Again, I try not to take medication, period, nowadays... I just don't believe it has long-term health benefits for me, but I do accept it has short-term ones, thus I take as needed and nothing more. I've been highly active now for the last few weeks, without any medication, and my depression is under control for the most part. I started feeling depressed this morning, forced myself to the gym to exercise, thus I now feel better this afternoon as a result. No medication to curb it, just forced exercise knowing that it makes me feel better and tends to curb depression. If I did nothing today and rested, knowing depression was starting to quickly overwhelm me, I would suspect that right now I would be feeling quite depressed... which leads to wanting to die, which leads to me taking valium and forcing myself out and exercisin.

 

[Flossy]

A brilliant response. I could not have asked for more precise clarity on what some would see as a set of questions that were too complex. You understood exactly what I needed. Thank you so much.

I agree totally with your thoughts on the exercise issue and the enforced discipline of the mind and body. Of course, this is not possible in the early stages, but I do feel that my desire to know your experience and opinion means I am ready to consider taking on this challenge.

I would just have to get through the brain zaps off coming off Pristiq. They only lasted two days last time and I feel sure that controlled valium use would support coming off it.

I appreciate the time and effort you put into my answers. I think this is a valuable concept for MD's to consider. That long term meds may not be absolutely necessary for everyone.

I hope in time, there is an avenue for you to represent My PTSD and be heard by researchers into PTSD. You may get to speak in US congress or at military hearings looking into PTSD, as the burden on their healthcare system is going to go through the roof within 10 years.

Again, I appreciate your input.

 

[Flossy]

Anthony, as an extra to managing depression with the use of exercise, I have found that there seems to be a direct reduction in depressive episodes depending on if I eat good quality protein throughout the day and few breads, etc.

This is difficult because depression can cause carb cravings. If I eat two scrambled eggs in the morning and some grilled tomato, then something more than a sandwich for lunch. Maybe chicken breast and avo.

Also, for an added protein source or for smoothies if cooking breakfast is a bummer, whey protein isolate is the best source. The pre-mixed stuff is a bit of a rip-off, price-wise.

One theory is that protein provides the amino acids that are need to make serotonin, Phenylalanine and Tryptophan.

That may be the reason, if lack of serotonin is what causes depression, we may never know for sure.

It could also be that insulin levels and blood sugars stay more stable with a steady supply of protein, keeping mood more stable.

If you are interested, I have an online source in Australia for good quality whey, you can PM me.

I haven't figure out how to do that yet. (not all brain fog is from PTSD, some is from being a bit of a dinosaur).

 

[anthony]

I've done the protein shakes and all that stuff, but I found little benefit from them, because I still got hungry. I simply eat healthy food as much as possible nowadays, exercise lots, which then also allows me to enjoy some yummy craving type foods without putting on weight. I've found this is the best balance I can achieve for me... it allows me to eat yummy foods, lots of good healthy food, all whilst burning it off with exercise and not starving at any stage.