News New Term: Completed Suicide Vs. Comitted Suicide

[J'qel]

Death certificates are a ...frustrating issue. I have medical professionals in the family and have had the unpleasant task of picking up death certificates. It seems to vary considerably depending on who is filling it out.

As for the points that were brought up: I don't think demonizing suicide demonizes an individual. There's a difference between suicide and suicidal individuals. The action is terrible, it deserves all the demonization it can get.

As for the accomplishment of completion, I did also make the statement that I cannot, aside from suicide think of a single negative application of completing something. Completion, aside from this very specific application is always used as a positive accomplishment. If there are negative uses of completing something in current use, I'm happy to be enlightened.

I don't understand the comment about initiating and finales-firstly I wouldn't call it a finale, as that implies drama, but perhaps final-but if typo ignore this. I still don't get it. Initiate is for when the individual does *not* die. That's why specify initiate instead of commit. To commit something in legal parlance is to have done something. Yes, allegedly is done, but it is still "allegedly committed a felony" which is to say they *supposedly did* the act. Not they supposedly attempted it, but actually did enact the crime in question. When you commit a felony or are charged with committing it, you're charged for doing, not planning. You can certain have allegedly committed it, but it's alleged that you did it, not that you planned it.

If two people from very different cultures, say and american and an australian aborigine are locked in a room trying to solve a puzzle, their body language won't help much until they establish a common "language". Not only will it be gibberish, but it will also be pointless and possibly insulting wild gestures. If the aborigine can speak english (many can), then s/he can explain and speak to the american about solutions, even if an errant hand gesture is a blatant insult to him/her-they can even ask about it or explain and ask that it not be done again. (This is not to say I undervalue body language, but people tend to think their native body language motions are universal-which they very much are not).

The traffic lights in Canada are a bluish green-mostly I suspect, because blue wavelegnths are easy to say and makes a better contrast against red (which is the earliest recognizable colour in human development)-there are psychological reasons why we use red and green as well-but colour theory is another whole can of worms. Your example doesn't particularly work. You'd be better with the space pen/pencil story that everyone has heard (and even the details of that make the story less viable, but we'll run with it).

The thing is, it isn't change for change's sake, and that particular statement cannot be taken on it's own without context. It is reliant upon the rest of the statements which explain the difference between positive and negative language and their impact on the human psyche. It's a small minor change with little pain or difficulty that can reap rewards. I would use the counter example of someone refusing to change chairs because they'd have to get up and move two feet, when the chair they could be sitting in is more comfortable, and in better repair.

It is very different from patient to patient, but when someone is sad or sorrowful they aren't going to accuse you of condescension, that is somethign that usually only happens when someone is already angry about something. Suicide may bring anger but it isn't often directed against those who are dealing with depressive patients. As an EMT, you were possibly dealing with otherwise healthy family members who were angry you couldn't save someone, you wouldn't be dealing with someone who is already contemplating suicide in a clinical environment. As you see there is a difference from person to person, I'm sure you can recognize why the difference in situations requires awareness and specific treatment of the individual including appropriate uses of terminology to reduce conflict and potential negative outcomes.

What NOT to say is interdependent with what TO say. They're opposing components of the same subject, much like light and dark are opposing elements of visibility. Without a level of darkness, there is no visible light, without a level of light, there is no visible darkness. You cannot have one without the other. You can't know what TO say if you don't know what you should NOT say.

 

[joeylittle]

If there are negative uses of completing something in current use, I'm happy to be enlightened.

You must have missed it, earlier:

When I have completed reading a book - I am not glad of it if the book was good.

When the ride on the Ferris wheel has reached completion, I am not eager to get off of it.

When the orchestra has completed their performance, the music is gone.

Your inherent bias is that the task is arduous, and completing it is a relief. But the message a suicidal person needs is the opposite: the task - staying alive - has the possibility of words, rides, music. But when it is completed, all that is gone. Would you like more examples of how completing something can leave an individual bereft?

 

[J'qel]

I don't often hear or see "I completed the ride" I see/hear "that was fun" or "we went on the ride", I "have read" a book or I have "finished a book", I don't "complete it", to say a "performance has completed" is similarly unusual. Usually it will be "please remain seated until the performance has finished".

Regardless, none of those are negative uses of the verb, even as rare they are to hear ever used. Truthfully, we'rd edging more and more every passing year into an informal society, so we see "done" or "finished".

"To complete" is almost always used for something we are relieved to be over with. While this may be an accurate sense of what the suicide victim is feeling (notice we use victim not participant-that is a method of discouraging suicide as an action using appropriate terminology)-it is not wise to advocate silently that there will be rest only if someone can end their life.

And yes, I am for quality of life over quantity, but suicidal tendancies are temporary and can be relieved with proper treatment. It would be like advocating the parent's joke of cutting off you arm when it gets hurt. The hurt *will* go away. We should not advocate ending the suffering of suicidal victims and sufferers with ending their life any more than we should tell children to cut off a limb because it's in pain. Like both, there are less drastic remedies that should be advocated as strongly as possible and suicide should be treated as a tragedy and *not* an option for relief, but only a cause of more pain.

The longer a suicidal individual lives, the greater chance they may have for treatment or circumstance that brings them from their affliction. Being suicidal is very very rarely a constant state of existence save in the terminally ill-which I would say is not so much a case of depression, but a case of being unable to face the reality of a life of pain and suffering that sees no end.

Suicidal non terminal think there is no end, but there is an end. It will get better, but only if they are encouraged and supported to get treatment instead of "completing" the unpleasant task that is their current life. Suicide completes nothing, it leaves loose ends and only spreads the suffering around. It's more of a smearing mess than anything.

And I also say that as someone who has struggled. I wanted an end, and yes, if I thought it would being my life to it's completion, it may have caused a great deal of issues. It was the fact that I wasn't completing, I was leaving it behind, undone and leaving those I cared for at loose ends and in pain that has pulled me back from thoughts (Once the attempt is started I do not believe anyone is is any mindset to consider such things, but in the pre emptive stage-the "seriously thinking about it" part-telling people that it means completion is not a good idea).

 

[joeylittle]

don't often hear or see "I completed the ride" I see/hear "that was fun" or "we went on the ride"

Maybe it's cultural, I don't know; those phrases are common to me.

To complete" is almost always used for something we are relieved to be over with

I hope you eventually learn to deal with language and meaning as it is - not as you believe it to be.

it is not wise to advocate silently that there will be rest only if someone can end their life.

You really don't understand.

I think your heart is mostly in the right place, but you have it backwards - at least, it seems so to me, a person living with chronic suicidality.

suicide should be treated as a tragedy and *not* an option for relief, but only a cause of more pain.

I honestly think you have not listened to anyone's voice but your own, here.

"Suicide should be treated as a tragedy and not as an option for relief".

Have you not heard those of us telling you that the suicidal mind does not see it at relief - not when it's finally at the end of the rope.

It is despair. And fear. And regret.

I am glad you don't know that; but it would be humane to listen to those of us that do. Believe what you want at the end of the day - I'm certainly not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to tell you what it's like.

Once the attempt is started I do not believe anyone is is any mindset to consider such things, but in the pre emptive stage-the "seriously thinking about it" part-telling people that it means completion is not a good idea).

I'm about to sound incredibly condescending. But I'm telling you the truth.

I thought I understood what it was to seriously contemplate suicide - exactly in the way you describe it - until I dropped down to the next level, and discovered I had not been as low as it goes. It doesn't matter if you would have thought 'completed sounds nice', when you were in your darkness. Had you given into that thought, and somehow been sucked down to the next circle of hell, you would have learned that there is literally no relief in the thinking, the planning or trying not to plan, and the terrible moment when you lose control of your mind - and the decision is made, just as @Neverthesame said.

It is a good number of steps past where you were. I am glad for you that you could pull back at that point. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I'm generally living in that zone these days. I'm not saying any of his with pride, or arrogance, or ego. I'm sure it sounds that way, but it's none of those things.

Alright - now I will retire from this thread, because I think I've said all I have to offer on the subject.

 

[J'qel]

I'm aware of what the definitions are, I am, however, also aware that as a living language, english changes rapidly based on cultural shifts. I would suggest looking up what "slut" used to mean-hint: nothing to do with sex (as recently as the 19th century). Slang is the morphing of linguistic variances into common parlance-a number of terms we use either didn't exist not too long ago, or are used in completely different ways.

It *is* relief. You seem to have some misapprehensions about me. Allow me to enlighten you: my first scar is on my wrist. I was eight. Suicide is all about leaving behind the pain of life. It's all about ending the pain and suffering and hopelessness. So, yes, it *is* entirely about relief. At least, at the point one is still coherent, and aside from chemical reactions. Someone who is suicidal can be talked down. They can be brought into therapy. They can get help. It *does* pass. So yes, removing it as an option to end their pain and encouraging less lethal methods of ending the pain would be a lot better and certainly more constructive.

At the moment where one is actually in the act of it-be it walking to a river, opening a pill bottle, or whatever means they use, they are beyond reasoning. The use of language is to be implemented for the stage *before* that-as I stated. It's for the planning part. The part where you think "you know it would just be better/easier/less painful if I died" it's to say "NO, no it isn't. It's bad, don't do that-get therapy instead. Suicide is no good. Not an option."

It isn't for when you're at the blackest part where you can't think and you just want it to stop. It's for "how do I make it stop?!?"

Prevention has always been worth more than all the dressing it up after the fact.

 

[Tinyflame]

I'm sorry I didn't rearrange the quotes, hope it makes sense.

I think we may be speaking of a different part of the animal here, like the analogy of the blind men with the elephant (one experiencing feeling a leg, a trunk etc.). All meaning well.

It isn't pedantic if it makes a difference in someone's life. Small things can make a big difference. Especially when applied to a large mass of people

Reastically speaking such language is intellectual, the way to reach many people (one at a time) won't be through sheer intellect when their cognitive functioning is compromised, especially.

Are you also familiar with pain fatigue?

The word suicide means death by one's own hand. Completed is correct usage if they die.

It's a subconscious matter,

Surely you are aware the subconscious mind cannot interpret the word 'no'? Hence, verbally telling one's self 'no suicide' equates to the subconscious 'hearing' suicide.

Being suicidal is very very rarely a constant state of existence save in the terminally ill-which I would say is not so much a case of depression, but a case of being unable to face the reality of a life of pain and suffering that sees no end.

Absolutely opposite to my experiences caring for the dying, the terminally ill are on borrowed time and know atm there's a definite likely end date approaching and, like wartime, suicide is the last thing most express. Those who fear loss of capacity, social standing, altered appearace or support frequently are suicidal however- or rather, 'euthenasia' inclined- usually expressing 'fear(s)' as absolute certain realities. As do those affected by loss of ability as they've known it, and chronic pain.

And struggling with unremitting SI is unfortunately not as rare as hidden, especially among the sevverly traumatized, without resources especially, if the representation and feedback on this site is any reflection.

Suicide completes nothing, it leaves loose ends and only spreads the suffering around. It's more of a smearing mess than anything.

I agree.

Have you not heard those of us telling you that the suicidal mind does not see it at relief - not when it's finally at the end of the rope... It is despair. And fear. And regret.

Perfectly well said. ^^ A no-win situation, as @Neverthesame said, trapped in a burning high-rise I think was their example.

I am glad you don't know that; but it would be humane to listen to those of us that do.. I thought I understood what it was to seriously contemplate suicide - exactly in the way you describe it - until I dropped down to the next level, and discovered I had not been as low as it goes. It doesn't matter if you would have thought 'completed sounds nice', when you were in your darkness. Had you given into that thought, and somehow been sucked down to the next circle of hell, you would have learned that there is literally no relief in the thinking, the planning or trying not to plan, and the terrible moment when you lose control of your mind - and the decision is made, just as @Neverthesame said.

My experience also and critically important to understand, I think. ^^ . I remember a woman recovering from ptsd and SI speaking in the book 'PTSD For Dummies' (the book was useless, but her statement was not, and she went on to become a T herself), telling her T ~"The fact that you understand why I have to commit suicide is why I don't". For some, having the option mentally helps. But I think it's someone understanding the sheer gravity of the happenings, and pain. Maybe it allows 'ourselves'/ myself the self-empathy or self-compassion? Idk. I also don't know if it's someone else's term I've heard, or just something that came to me, but as @joeylittle called it I'd describe it myself as the (7 cricles) of Hell. Wtf. Really horrific experience.

Prevention has always been worth more

I agree.

What NOT to say is interdependent with what TO say

JMHO? Exactly, Tell the person they are needed, wanted, and loved, if they are. Tell them they have a purpose. Don't abuse them. Stay connected. If you want them to stay, tell them so. Not that they can't choose.

 

[Tinyflame]

ETA (then end of crotchety old-woman rant ;) @Neverthesame :p), I suppose that's the crux: JMHO but language matters less than (to the general public at large)- 'You too would feel like me- perhaps yourself choose suicide sooner- all other things being equal if you walked in my shoes". We as people are not so different from one another as we often characterize ourselves (and we often think of it as 'me' vs 'them', at a heart-level). Decisions are all made in contexts.

Just like ptsd, it isn't 'you' until or when you end up with ptsd yourself.

 

[NoWhereKnowWhere]

I think you're arguing about it from the wrong point of view. I do t think changing it to completed has any thing to do with suicidal people and people who have completed it. In my opinion it has more to do with loved ones of suicide victims not having to feel like they had done something unforgivable. That they've committed a mortal sin and so on.

If demonising suicide worked why did people still do if they were told they would go to hell or if the failed and were caught jail. Being raised catholic even when I genuinely believed it was a mortal sin and I was buying myself a one way ticket to hell and I'd never see my loved ones again it didn't matter. I still tried it the pain had gotten too much. That was a long time ago and I'm atheist now and knowing there's an option if things get too much. It helps. Makes me feel in more control of my life and I need that at the moment. Old coping mechanisms for me have always been SI and even some planing. They served me well I'm still here and haven't lost my mind (well not totally) when it was all I had in my tool box it worked.

 

[J'qel]

We have never had a time when suicide wasn't considered bad so we can't answer that question. I have no knowledge of a society that either is neutral or approves of suicide as a means to end a life due to depression (most of the cultures I'm familiar with are western, including some south american tribal cultures-so if you are aware of one, please do enlighten and I'll do the googling footwork, I'm always interesting in learning new things). Lacking that I cannot say that demonizing has done more harm than good.

It stands to reason that telling people something is bad would lower the numbers, but without another society that is comparable for comparison, I'm afraid logic is all we have. Negative reinforcement does work (at least that there are statistics and studies on-go go raw data analysis!) so it would stand to reason that demonizing suicide as a method of negative reinforcement (only if applied correctly-poorly it can do more harm than good) would lower suicide numbers.

I can see why having an option to escape makes the situation better, but it doesn't have to be suicide. It could be a go bag and a planned retreat from the world. Planning on getting away and having the potential to flee instead of die is much preferable.

Keep in mind that all of this is based on the view that people dying=bad. I'm not bringing religion or metaphysics into it, because that gets extremely complicated with no answers and usually nothing more than arguments. I respect the beliefs of others enough not to delve into that particularly twisty briar. It's also ignoring other subject matter I won't quite bring up because they're rather cold, and not suitable for this set of forums.

I'm also talking about the idea of demonizing suicide, not the survivors. The words are applied to the action, not the person, not in any way, and I understand that some people-probably most people-have problems separating actions from people. Suicide is bad, the suicidal are not, nor their families.

In most cases, referring to it, and continuing to use the term "committed" will probably happen anyways, because people have already started making the differentiation themselves in common parlance by saying "so and so attempted suicide" vs "so and so committed suicide" and as has been overly evident on this thread, people are resistant to change.

The clinicians can feel free to call it "completed" among themselves, but there are a number of reasons I have pointed out why I believe it's both unsuitable for conversing with (the average example of) patients subject to suicidal thoughts, and not a needed alteration to the existing language.

I also studied language because I see examples much like this constantly and it bothered me. I'm the sort of person that would pester my professor about a poorly written exam question or write commentary about it on the margins. I think communicating clearly and with direct purpose applied in the proper fashion is extremely important. Not just on an individual level, but on a mass scale-and those two are very VERY different languages.

It is admirable that people are willing to talk about their personal experiences and it shows just how wide of a spectrum of sufferers there are, but to address each and every one with individual language, tact and purpose is a large part of what divides a good therapist/psychologist/counselor from a poor one, and it will be done by them in their settings, no matter what the approved for mass communication terms are handed down from on high.

Society will also choose it's own terms, after all, there's a reason we don't call dead "permanently inconvenienced*" now.. or really...ever. They're still using committed and attempted, and in fact seem to be evolving them into a paired word separation to allow for clear messages. I expect that is how it will continue, regardless of "initiated" or "completed". There's only so much a handful of people can do to change a language when the rest have already made up their minds.

So, yes, I think initiated is better than attempted, and if we must choose to change a word for a designation regarding suicide, that *that* should be the one that should change. Committed is appropriate. Completed means to finish a task. Living should not be seen as a task to be completed in the social mass mindset. That's potentially damaging. What clinicians use among other professionals in a professionals only setting is their own business, but when addressing at risk patients one should always use the most compassionate application they can and tailor it to the needs of the individual. I do not see "completed" as a compassionate statement, more of a dispassionate one, remote and not suitable for clients in need of care, rather than clinical analysis.



* why yes, I was around for the 90s list of "politically correct"-the 21st century version is a very poor imitation. If you're ever thinking we're too politically correct, I suggest looking up the politically correct memos of listed terms in the early 90s.

 

[Lori0122]

i recently heard that 'completing suicide is now the preferred way to describe suicide since it omits th...

Suicide used to be considered a crime so that's where the "committed" came from. I'd like to see it change from that but there's not really a good way to say it so I'm not sure it matters.

 

[NoWhereKnowWhere]

I haven't been to university and studied languages and and I don't care enough to go google ancient roman suicide to see if it fits the discussion or Japans culture with regard to suicide. I can't write massive long replies because I really struggle finding words to describe what I mean. It just feels very black and white and it's just not like that.

All I can comment on are my own experiences and no one can say they're wrong. They're mine and valid. I understand where your coming from it's been an interesting discussion. People experience things differently. Some People can't just up and leave because of various different issues,money, childcare responsibilities so on. This is how I've experienced it, this is how I feel. I did the best I could with what I had. I know there's a lot I don't know, never experienced. That's fine I can say you know what I don't know I don't understand enough to comment on a lot of what your saying. My own experience is what Ive said, I don't know and couldn't comment on others I can try to empathise as best I can drawing from my own.

People change the way the speak and the words they use all the time.
I recently found out that gyp was meant as in gypsy (racial slur) that swindle you and was like ok I know not to use this anymore.

Some people won't like what ever it is, some or will, some people will not care and go with it, some people will not care and not change, some people will. Some people will so on so forth.

This is all very academic and I'm sure some very smart people decided this shouldn't be called committed it should be completed. But I think they're time would've been better spent asking how can we help how can we change this?

 

[Tinyflame]

Yes I think compassion ot lack of is recognizable under any name.

Some People can't just up and leave because of various different issues,money, childcare responsibilities so on. This is how I've experienced it, this is how I feel. I did the best I could with what I had.

Yes. Hugs to you @NoWhereKnowWhere . :hug: