"no-talk" Therapy?

[DogwoodTree]

It wasn't all wasted because now you are having all of these thoughts. Maybe explore why you were frozen and shutdown.

Shouldn't the goal in sessions be "to bond" rather than "to trigger"?? Last week, they were talking about how they didn't want to push too hard until we had established some sort of safety connection. I came in today with the intent to try to be more vulnerable and to connect...not put on my "strong face" and take charge when things aren't going well. I can't tell you how much this all threw me for a loop. It was not at all what I expected. I had no clue how to respond until it was too late.

Pull the rug out from under someone after you have the safety harness in place, not before. :(

 

[scout86]

It's wrong if it doesn't help anything.

Yes, but it's the therapist's job to help, not yours. THEY are the ones who are supposed to know what's going on and steer things in a useful direction. I've heard of therapists who would sit in silence, waiting for a client to talk. I'm sure mine wouldn't do that, because it wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm not going to "talk" when I feel threatened, I'm going to do something to protect myself instead.

I'm a farrier and I actually trim horses for a couple T's who use their horses in therapy. I even participated once, in a way, but I don't know much about it. I can't see how "everyone sitting in silence, not knowing what's going on" could be "therapeutic". I don't think you "failed", I think they screwed up. JMO.

What do you usually do? Do you have an easier time connecting with the horses than with people? What were the horses doing during all this? Just wandering around?

I don't necessarily "feel better" when I leave a therapy session, although sometimes I do. I DO feel like we're accomplishing something, even if it seems to be slow. I also, sometimes, feel like I "failed" after a session. I agree that you actually can't do that, but I sure get feeling that way!

.have to call or email, because I walked out before we could work that out.

Personally, I often do better in emails. I think my T would rather I actually talked to him, but he uses email now and then to communicate and he always reads mine. There have been several times when something went a little...."different?" in a session and I couldn't talk about it at the time, but did in an email. In your situation, I'd probably email them and tell them why you walked out and how you felt during the session. They need to know this. It should help them do a better job in the future. (BTW, sometimes just sitting and quietly watching horses be horses is kind of interesting. It gives you a window into what they're like on their own, when we're not messing with them. Probably not what they had in mind.....)

 

[DogwoodTree]

Yes, but it's the therapist's job to help, not yours. THEY are the ones who are supposed to know what's going on and steer things in a useful direction. I've heard of therapists who would sit in silence, waiting for a client to talk. I'm sure mine wouldn't do that, because it wouldn't have the desired effect. I'm not going to "talk" when I feel threatened, I'm going to do something to protect myself instead.

I think they're taking the approach...that I should be helping myself, and they're just coaching or walking alongside or whatever. If I hadn't already spent 2 decades trying to solve this on my own, I might see that as a helpful thing. But I'm paying for help because I haven't been able to find the answers myself. So yes, I felt threatened, or maybe more accurately, abandoned.

This happened a few weeks ago, too, when I emailed my T asking for confirmation that he still intended to keep working with me, since I was starting to get paranoid that he was shifting me over to the equine T so he wouldn't have to work with me anymore. He didn't respond to the email, and at our next session, I told them how scared I had gotten and how I thought that was our last session because he never responded to what I thought was a really important email. They know I have issues with this. It didn't work well a few weeks ago to leave me hanging, and it didn't work well today.

Do you have an easier time connecting with the horses than with people?

I don't connect with either. I grew up around horses, so I'm comfortable enough with them...can halter them, lead them, whatever. But "connect"? Not really. I'm too busy watching the humans and trying to figure out what they're doing or expecting of me or whatever. The T team knows this, too. We've talked about it.

What were the horses doing during all this? Just wandering around?

There were two horses in the indoor corral. They were nipping at each other at first, and scratching each other's backs, and following each other around, kicking barrels. Then they come closer to us and settled down and just stood still. They were really active while I was still anticipating having a productive session, and not long after I started giving up and shutting down is when they settled down, too. The whole idea of equine therapy is that the horses mirror the client's inner state, kind of like an organic biofeedback machine. So I'm sure you could get all kinds of good metaphors out of their behavior there. But what difference does it make? I still shut down, and no one did anything about it (including me).

In your situation, I'd probably email them and tell them why you walked out and how you felt during the session. They need to know this. It should help them do a better job in the future.

I have to decide first if I want to keep working with them. I'm really discouraged and hurting. Use the whole hour just to watch me frozen and non-interactive? Ten or fifteen minutes, maybe. But the whole hour? WTF??

 

[Friday]

I tried thinking of things I could do that would "take the lead." But this is equine therapy. The po...

Taking the lead can be as simple as asking the question "What am I supposed to be doing?" ... Instead of waiting to be told what to do.

It's also the self confidence to be able to do so. There are 1001 different issues that can lead into going mute and waiting to be told what to do. It's pretty clear from what you've written where yours are coming from... But it's unlikely, if this is early on, that they would know that.

Last week, they were talking about how they didn't want to push too hard until we had established some sort of safety connection.

This makes the silence and waiting for you really make sense. Horse people learn to wait for horses to come to them. They might try a little reach out, but if the horse balks? They relax right back into waiting. So instead of pushing you by telling you what was going on, or what to do, or any one of a hundred tasks to give you? Waiting is. Refusing to answer a question midsession? Okay. Not ready yet. No pressure then. We'll sit back and wait until you come to us. LOL without the very human guilt-trip of telling someone they're "waiting"... Beyond having mentioned last session that this was what they were going to be doing this session.

...

There was another piece in here that I can't find at the moment, where you were instructed to ask them for help, and didn't. That you figure things out on your own. That's both a strength and a weakness.

- Why didn't they know what was going on with you? You didn't tell them.
- Why didn't they they salvage the session? Did they know it needed to be salvaged? That you were getting increasingly frustrated, instead of relaxing into a scary situation and getting more comfortable?
- Why didn't they tell you? You didn't ask.

Now I'm willing to lay serious money on the table that unless I say this AND you believe me... That you're going to take this as blame. That XYZ is your fault. That is not what I'm saying. This isn't a blame thing. For all I know they are completely disorganized f*cktwats who shouldn't be in charge of giving therapy to a gerbil. What I'm noticing here is a trend, of you having questions, not asking them, and coming up with the answers yourself (usually the worst possible interpretation). In the cognitive distortions list? (I linked the article) That's called mind-reading / jumping to conclusions. So is the assumption that others know what is going on with you, without you telling them. That is a huge, amazing, awesome pattern to know & work on shifting and altering. Like a life-altering shazaam thing to be working on. Just here in this thread* there are maybe a dozen examples of mind reading, across a variety of areas. So whether you continue on with equine therapy in general, or these people in particular (They could be awesome, they could suck... No idea! I don't know why they did things they way they did them, either. Neither of us will know until you ask ;)).... Working on that cognitive distortion? That's something you can do on your own AND in therapy, and if you take absolutely nothing else from EqT or this session? That's huge. And awesome.

 

[scout86]

What @FridayJones said about not asking questions is something I do a lot. Partly because of long experience with "asking for help" not actually resulting in "help". But, it's good to learn how and when to ask, for sure, and that you can, and it can be safe, and it can even be helpful. And, maybe they WERE waiting for you to ask. (I'm really glad my T has ADHD and can't handle the long silences. I can't handle them either. LOL)

In my experience, some horses mirror the energy of the people around them a lot of the time. But they don't all and they don't always. What I know of horses is that being a horse is a little like having PTSD. It's all about trust, and staying safe, and knowing when you need to escape or fight. I can see where they can show a person a lot about themselves, in the right situation and I can see how they can be very useful for therapy. The group I helped with was a bunch of kids, mostly from town, who came from some pretty dreadful situations. I think it was pretty cool for them to find that they could cause a 1000# animal to do what they asked.

I don't know what they had in mind. I do know I've been close to quitting therapy a bunch of times, for a bunch of reasons. I decided, going in, that, if I DID quit, it was going to be after he had a chance to explain himself and after I had made him aware of what I was having trouble with. Somehow. Even if it was easier to just disappear. Which it would be! So far, that's been a good choice. There have been some awkward sessions. (The session after I accused him, at great length and much anger, of lying to me comes to mind.....) But, when it comes right down to it, I've actually learned more from working through the problems than from the "average" sessions. What ever the case, trust me, you're not too messed up for therapy. I don't think anyone who wants to improve is too messed up to gain something from the right therapy.

 

[DogwoodTree]

But, when it comes right down to it, I've actually learned more from working through the problems than from the "average" sessions.

I don't know if I can keep doing this. I feel like I'm fighting every minute to keep going, and stay with this. I don't want to fight all the time. I want a connection. I want something I can feel safe with and hold onto, but there's just nothing there...no connection. Today left me feeling even more isolated and alone in all of this. It hurts so much.

 

[DogwoodTree]

@FridayJones , you sound a lot like my pastor (whom I love)...same no-nonsense, this-is-what-I-see, take-it-or-leave-it tone:
"Yeah, it's a tough world. Now go live in it."

Beyond having mentioned last session that this was what they were going to be doing this session.

In every session before this for 2 months now, they've started with some light conversation, and then told me something about the plan for the day before getting started. Every time. How is changing their approach to not chatting first and not telling me what's going on, "establishing a safety connection"? Seems more like a lack of connection to me. Pulling away the consistency and structure feels more like a threat.

I went in feeling focused and a tad bit optimistic...hoping to apply some of the concepts and ideas y'all talked about on my other threads this past week. I started noticing something was off within seconds of everyone getting quiet. I waited, thinking maybe they were just thinking and getting a feel for the session. And waited some more. And within a few minutes, I felt the panic rising. My breathing was very shallow. I couldn't move much. I couldn't look at anyone. The fear moved in and the hope moved out, and I was stuck. And they just kept waiting. And I couldn't do anything. I wanted to leave, or sit down, or ask a question, or pet the horses...anything to break the silence. But I couldn't, I couldn't break out of the trap. I felt like they were testing me, and I was failing. I felt like they were challenging me, and I had to fight it. I felt like they were manipulating me, and I had to resist. Layers and layers of defenses triggered, and I couldn't say a word.

What I'm noticing here is a trend, of you having questions, not asking them, and coming up with the answers yourself (usually the worst possible interpretation). In the cognitive distortions list? (I linked the article) That's called mind-reading / jumping to conclusions. So is the assumption that others know what is going on with you, without you telling them.

They've pointed out many times that I do this a lot. I'm starting to see it, but I'm an intuitive thinker anyway. I form ideas and concepts in my head without fully establishing every fact, then fill in the facts as I go. And I've had tons of practice having to do this with people (especially since interactions with people don't come naturally to me anyway). No clue how to get around this, but yes, trying to work on it.

Now I'm willing to lay serious money on the table that unless I say this AND you believe me... That you're going to take this as blame. That XYZ is your fault. That is not what I'm saying. This isn't a blame thing.

I feel sick to my stomach about losing out on a whole session today...spending the whole time staring at the ground. This is very expensive for us. Why couldn't I process this more quickly? Why couldn't I just ask a stupid question? I hear what you're saying, that it doesn't help to blame myself for it. But you're also right that...I don't really believe you yet. (trying, though)

Why didn't they know what was going on with you? You didn't tell them.

Why didn't they tell you? You didn't ask.

When they don't first show interest, I don't feel safe enough to bring it up...to say how I'm feeling, or to ask questions to clear up my own confusion. This could take a while, because usually I don't even know how I feel or what information is safe to try to get from someone else. Like scout86 said, asking for help doesn't usually actually bring help, but condemnation or rejection or resentment or patronizing.

 

[joeylittle]

When they don't first show interest, I don't feel safe enough to bring it up...to say how I'm feeling, or to ask questions to clear up my own confusion. This could take a while, because usually I don't even know how I feel or what information is safe to try to get from someone else.

You really are incredibly insightful about yourself, @DogwoodTree. I think it would be good for you to go back one more time, even if it's just for one last time, to close things down and talk with them about your experience in that really strange session you had.

As far as what you can ask of others...I would just tell you that you can ask your care providers anything. It's all safe. They are being paid to take care of themselves and let the focus be on you. You can ask them anything, at any time. The degree of detail to which they will answer is, of course, up to them. But you can say anything.

If you could get your head around that one idea, I think you'd find any therapy experience to be a lot less frustrating.

I'm just going to say - based on your description of that last session - that they aren't very good equine therapists.

 

[Rumors]

As well, I have heard you say a couple times how expensive it is for you and what a financial struggle it is for your family. The pressure to "succeed" in therapy quickly could be driving your anxiety. Please share that with them. They may be able to adjust your rate, find some financial aid, or recommend something that could help you with this burden.
I think you have done well here on the forum to come to terms with your session. I don't think it was a lost session. I can tell you horses don't always mirror the person, however they do tend to pick up on safe situations which can dramatically change their fight or flight response. Go back, talk with the therapists. Print out your comments here and let them read them. Or, write a note. Don't give up!

 

[DogwoodTree]

This makes the silence and waiting for you really make sense. Horse people learn to wait for horses to come to them.

Been thinking about this. I'm no horse whisperer, but my understanding of the purpose of this activity is to establish with the horse that you're the leader and the horse is part of your herd. It's a submissive act by the horse to approach you in a non-aggressive way, communicating that he acknowledges you're in charge. Horses, as herd animals, find safety in being submissive to a strong leader.

How is this beneficial for a trauma client? Especially a long-term, developmental trauma client with deeply pervasive trust issues? And even more so, one with many years of psychological abuse from three, very intelligent manipulators (and one not-so-intelligent manipulator)? My step-dad would pull crap like this all the time, just to see what effect it would have on me or on someone else. He would talk about how he was going to try this or that...not for the other person's well-being, but for the purpose of amusing himself with their discomfort and psychological pain.

Mental trickery, out-of-the-box psycho-techniques, emotional manipulation...it's just not going to work on me (even though I soo wish it could be that easy to get help). I've got too many, well-developed defenses against that stuff. The two equine people (the equine T and the horse specialist) only know very little about that part of my background, but they do know it's an issue for me. The primary T knows more, although not everything (not that I've purposely withheld information...just that it's hard to know which parts are important and which are just whining and complaining). Maybe they didn't intend for this to turn into a standoff...maybe they had much more constructive ambitions, I don't know. But what I really don't understand is why they let it go on for the full hour??

Even if you just count the first half-hour, to the point when one of them asked me what was happening for the day...I want to be responsive to them. I've told them that. If I can't respond, it's because I need help. The person who checked in at the halfway point was sitting behind me, and it was the horse specialist, not one of the Ts sitting in front of me. I like her and all...but she never leads the conversation. That was another unexpected change yesterday. It was just too many obstacles to achieve communication without more help from their side.

I don't think they would have set off any more triggers if they had given me a huge, tight, long group-hug, with caressing, and not caring where they touched. It's almost like...let's figure out the worst things we can do, and do them, and see what happens. Maybe group hugs and initiating conversations at the very beginning of a session are good goals to work toward, but just like in education, you have to scaffold a person toward the goal, not throw them in the pit and see if they survive.

I don't necessarily "feel better" when I leave a therapy session, although sometimes I do. I DO feel like we're accomplishing something, even if it seems to be slow.

I would love to walk out feeling like I've made progress. Maybe it's me, maybe it's a bad match, maybe it's them, maybe it's their approach, I don't know. As it is, it usually takes hours if not days of working on my own to make progress after a session. It's like I have to do my own self-therapy in order to cope with the therapy...and in that process, I make progress. Is that how it's supposed to be?

Thing is, I like them, all three of them. And I like being around the horses. But what I need is therapy that works for me. I guess I just keep hoping we'll figure that out together.

 

[Rumors]

Actually @DogwoodTree , horse people know when to wait on a horse and when to exhibit leader skills. Sometimes you have to wait and sometimes you have to lead... Maybe this lesson is what you need? Thing is, you can't always fall back on corrupt things that your dad did. You sometimes have to take charge and lead the way in your own life. If you "need" something different from your Therapists, you should be prepared to share that with them next go around even if you need to print this out. Just my take...

 

[DogwoodTree]

Met with the T team to talk about what happened last session. Their experience of it was very different than mine. They said they were mostly just watching the horses to understand and experience the moment or whatever, and holding space for me with whatever I was experiencing, and just waiting to be available if...whatever. I don't know. We talked a lot, but I don't get it. I'm so screwed up. My brain just doesn't work right at all. None of it makes sense to me, and I'm so tired of trying.

There's no connection for me, not with anyone...anyone...ever. Nothing gets through. I try...it's just too far to reach.