News Petition: Amazon, Don't Carry Books Advocating Child Abuse

[anthony]

My question would be then... why example is a religious institution advocating the reading of this book? Does that not say something about religion in general? More importantly, just how screwed up religion is?

Politics and religion are the two causes of all wars to date. Both are as bad as one another. Why would anyone support a church that supports this book?

That is what baffles me even more... that people petition that the book be removed because churches are advocating it, yet instead of petitioning the churches stop the nonsense, people go after the book author.

 

[mamachick]

I read this post last night and found some part of one book to read for myself.-To Train Up a Child, and this is pure crap. Im not sure who we should be petitioning about this-Amazon? Churches?

I see Anthonys point-that all kinds of garbage can be found on the internet and people have the right to write anything that they want to. This is true. Maybe there needs to be a warning label reminding that this is the opinion of the author and you should check with you state as the advice may be considered child abuse and you may be prosecuted.

Again, I do not know all of the facts about this. The author is certainly referencing religion, comparing babys little fingers grabbing at you with Adam and Eve. This is pure bs and the problem that I have with religious views is they often clash with good psychology and good mental health and hygiene.

I came from and extremely dysfunctional family and after observing my sisters children having so many difficulties ( good intent can be a pathway to hell), I sought parenting advice before having children in 1988 and 1989. One resource was "Children The Challenge" by Rudolph Drierkus ( abit old school). It is about natural consequences, it is about misguided intention, role of birth order, etc. I actually used the words "training when my children were little" and it meant nothing like this. I set up training periods since we rarely had babysitters. Training meant taking a 1 and 2 and half year old to a family restaurant just for ice cream-if they misbehaved, we could leave just paying for deserts and coffee. When we took them to a very nice restaurant, they already knew how to behave. Training was taking them to the grocery store when I really did not need food, so if they misbehaved, we we leave immediately-setting up for the time that I really had to take them to buy the groceiries, and I did. I recall a strong will daughter peeing on my husband as he carried her from a store one time. I agree, when we have children, someone is going to get trained, its us or them. I am opposed to physical punishments as it too often gets out of hand.

I am not advocating for any particular method or criticizing others style, but if someone is recomending these books, (church, therapist, teacher), there are parents that will believe anything. Until 3 years ago, I taught parenting classes to parents who were court ordered to attend my classes because they were found to be abusive or neglectful by the dept of human service. I have heard some real creative abuses. One man that could not force the 3 yr old to stand in the corner without using force , nailed the kids shoes to the floor and then stood him in them.

My pediatrician was of the spare the rod theory-and told me I have a strong will kid and gave me a book. I do have a strong will kid and now she is in law school studying to be a prosecuting attorney and put criminals away. I threw the book away, and spared the rod and saved her spirit.

Books like this at least need to come with warnings. Sorry for babblying, I do have a passion on this issue after seeing so much damage.

 

[Abrasky]

Yeah to the book with the weedeater cord, we should petition to have the author strapped to a pole and be "weed-eated".
I'm all for weeding out books about violence. That includes using weedeater to strap children to me comes under the same category as that book that came out on amazon for pettafiles.
Yes guenuinely abusive books should be banned, books are a powerful media to inspire people.It's not about free speech unless it is about discipline, which abuse clearly is not. :).
I would also like to ban mother in laws for being at their daughter in laws to smack their children or be at them until they just end up with depression. They are as bad as some of these books.( just kidding, I just reserve the right to ignore). And they wonder why I don't talk to them anymore.
Some great parenting books include Parenting without stress by Marvin Marshall and the Responsive parenting series.

 

[mamachick]

Love and Logic is not a bad theory. We used it at the agency that I did work for but with some additions/modifications, 123 Magic, depending on ages and parenting abiliities. The sad part is, is that some parents do not have the mental capacity to do any critical thinking about this stuff on their own. If you tell them to use plumbing or weedeater cord, they will. There are some challenged people getting this material. The people responding of course no this is awful, its the ones that do not understand the consequence.

Some say there are too many lawsuits. Then I hear something like this and think, what publishing company thought this was ok. If some desperate parent falls for this and has their kids removed by cps and sue's, I hardly feel sorry for the author or publisher. Is the publisher affliliated with a particular religion? does anybody know that?

 

[BloomInWinter]

I believe there is no moral distinction between the football-adoring culture that valued a pedophile coach above abused children, and a culture that allows child abuse as long as the abuser claims it to be part of his/her religion. Abuse is abuse, no matter the rationalization is by the abuser.

I don't believe 'Freedom of Religion' includes 'freedom to abuse children.'

That some accept this is indoctrination, group-think, bystander apathy, or at the very least...lacks empathy.

There's an informative article about child abuse promotion in books at:

"Monday, the New York Times published a story about child deaths in homes that have embraced the teachings of To Train Up a Child, a book by Christian preacher Michael Pearl that advocates using a switch on children as young as six months old."

Link Removed

Michael Pearl is an abuser and Amazon is profiting from his cult-like following. I'm asking Amazon (AND Home Depot, btw) because it is the best chance I know to raise awareness on this issue.

While I could spend my time going after each church...the regional sex abuse fights by those fighting Pedos in the Catholic Church have demonstrated just where outrage fueled action, even from local church members, ends up. The abuser just got moved away from where the pocket of awareness was.

But by using the power of keywords to links this book's name to the words "abuse" "discipline" and the VERY powerful keyword "Amazon"...this activist's time is far better spent and reaches a much greater audience.

 

[BloomInWinter]

There's more about the horrific deaths of children by some followers of this advice at http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/u...f-spanking.html?_r=2&ref=us" target="_hplink"

Yes, the parents are to blame. But a web of causation approach to the problem of abuse by followers is to weaken or disable as many strands as possible.

Marketing is one strand. Delivery of the material is another. Awareness, another. This is but the plucking of one strand.

But men can no longer legally rape their wives because of lots of tiny actions such as this. Women are no longer legally considered their husband's ''marital property' because of efforts such as this. Husbands may no longer beat their wives...and all of these used to fall under 'freedom of religion' too. People like me questioned these things despite facing abuse, ostracizing, humiliation...and worse.

 

[mamachick]

Bloomin-is there a way to post these letters on facebook for friends to copy, sign and send via email? I know I get those for political issues quite often.

I know I am really sounding critical now, sorry, but I just looked up "Dont Make Me Count to Three"-as the name infers, its giving power to the child. Within the book, the author says these threats such as dont make me....Wait til your father gets home.. is a parents attempt at avoiding discipline. Wait til your father gets home, I wont tell your father, dont tell your father...all infer that men carry the power in the family-surprise.

I could not peek at the part that uses physical punishment. It was basically an account of a frustrated and tired mother after a day with her children. The cause, children asking the same irrelevant questions, asking for something , wanting something, putting their fingers in the dirt, etc. All normal behaviour and part of childhood. I hear this theme that this can all be avoided. It is part of development. I am not minimizing a mothers new music coming from a purple dinasour or another character, victoria secret traded for nursing bra's, been there and done it. These are the years where kids learn to deal with siblings, to self sooth, of course the want what they want, whine, and tantrums at times is also normal. They are learning social skills, and when their attempts do not work, they will try something else.

"I did not write this book based on my own authority, this book was written on the authority of Gods word and expertise of his counsel"

 

[mamachick]

The Rule of Thumb was a term used by a judge to determine if a husband was within his rights to discipline his wife.
As long as the mark width was no larger than the width of his thumb, it was within his rights

 

[BloomInWinter]

Bloomin-is there a way to post these letters on facebook for friends to copy, sign and send via email? I know I get those for political issues quite often.

Many petitions such as this one do have corresponding social media counterparts. The info is in the tabs on the petition pages.

Thank goodness the web can be used as a force for good, too.

 

[mamachick]

It was Dobsons book I pitched around 1989-Dare to Discipline I think.
Just finished the articles. I was not aware of the amount of followers and these newer books.

I liked the post that read"
Dear Jesus,
Please protect me from your followers. Amen

 

[mamachick]

My question would be then... why example is a religious institution advocating the reading of this book? Does that not say something about religion in general? More importantly, just how screwed up religion is?

Politics and religion are the two causes of all wars to date. Both are as bad as one another. Why would anyone support a church that supports this book?

That is what baffles me even more... that people petition that the book be removed because churches are advocating it, yet instead of petitioning the churches stop the nonsense, people go after the book author.

So true Anthony, I think these people are so brainwashed in the church, it is their family, and all they know. I would be willing to bet that the church owns the publishing or there is an affiliation. (as hazleton publishes recovery material). I knew a gal that was Evangilist and the husband beat and raped her. The minister knew and told her to work it out, threatened to shun her if she seperated-told her it was only acceptable if he committed adultry. I do not know the answer as to who to protest to, but I do can see that it is a growing issue.

Often these churches will print the books themselves and then offer a study or group and provide the book to participants. A few years ago, churches near me were recruiting, I was contacted by 5 different friends to join their group. They even left copies of hard cover books in the mailbox with a reminder and hopes. It was very competetive. They promise to answer real problems. I think a lot of parents are beside themselves in knowing what to do with all the responsibility on them today and the societal norms.

 

[IsisDC]

I agree these books are horrid, and I am also a free speech advocate as my PTSD is from an FBI raid on my house due to my freelance photojournalism.
I am the victim of severe government censorship of the press. Twenty FBI agents busted into my house and confiscated all my photography work, cameras, memory sticks, computers, they trashed my house and kept my work for a year and a half and returned my equipment broken.

I was never charged with anything, they made up weird excuses why I was a target like because I was a vegan they claimed that I was like minded to environmental and animal rights "terrorism". Or because I wear a lot of black.

Most of my photography work was shooting protests and activist groups, from all sides of the political spectrum.

I never broke the law, I never participated in any of the protests, I was just there as a photographer and I could some times sell my work to news outfits and publications.

Now, as far as Amazon goes, Amazon is a private business, and I don't see it as censorship to ask a private business to own responsibility for what they are selling to the people. If these books are really advocating illegal and nefarious abuse to children then they should at least put up a warning about it.