• We are a multilingual website again. Read the notice about this.
  • Understand AI use at MyPTSD: all AI use is explained in our AI help page. AI use is by choice here. It exists if you want it, but does nothing unless you choose to use it.

Structural Dissociation?

Status
Not open for further replies.
It is very strange to see old issues in the light of the "parts" and dissociation mental model.
Oh, yes. And yes.
Everything reshuffling and reconfiguring and blowing apart and coming together again in all sorts of different ways in me. Who knows what it will all look like in the next 5 minutes never mind the next 5 years. yikes. I suppose, on the positive side, this is a hopeful thing...the forever remaking of ourselves. But it feels like hell.

@greenleaf, my PT guy kind of gave up on me after 8 months. I'd be curious to go back to him now, knowing all I do (that was before I had any inkling of what was really happening with me.) I told my therapist that there is a new career out there to be made: a trauma therapist + massage therapist. Someone who can work with body and the rest safely and comfortably. So people like us don't have to work so hard to cobble together bits and pieces that work for us.

@Eleanor, ha ha ha, your comment about being 50 made me laugh. I thought all my stuff was middle age too. Who knew it is the past gurgling up in our muscles and joints.
 
I wonder if these physical things are indicators of physical abuse more than other types? Though so often you can't really differentiate abusive situations into just one type, there is so much wrong going on. :(
I am CERTAIN they are - No physical abuse in my past. Zip. Only emotional. (see, see you guys, I didn't say "only emotional neglect" I am making progress here...) The hip thing I've known about for several years and is clearly about anger. It comes and goes.

I remember hearing or reading that sometimes cats tend not to show physical problems until they really can't avoid it, supposedly because they are solitary hunters and not as social as some animals. I wonder now, though, if they maybe just don't feel some of the physical problems because cats are for whatever evolutionary reason more likely to have a "deeper" part of their brain decide it's not safe to... The ability to develop structural dissociation can't have suddenly evolved in humans, this must be shared by other mammals, it seems to me.
Structural or just dissociation. I think the mechanisms... might be different. And is likely different than just ordinary analgesia (like one gets with a big adrenaline rush) or the kind of "not minding" one gets with opioids. There is a remarkable amount of new (last 15 years) pain research out there... And it is pretty basic... And I don't have time to read it all!!!!!!
 
Only emotional. (see, see you guys, I didn't say "only emotional neglect" I am making progress here...)
Yes, that's progress. Emotional abuse is worse than anything else. I'm glad you're working on this.

Oops, I shouldn't say that I guess because it is putting abuse into a hierarchy. It's just that I've had both and the emotional is worse for me. It's worse because it is invisible even though you feel it physically. It makes you second-guess yourself. Makes you feel like it's your fault. Makes you feel like you imagined it...that you're too sensitive, that there's something wrong with you. It wrecks (me at least) way more than anything else.
 
SIGN ME UP!!!!
Apparently there are a few people around like this. My therapist found one for me...she's an RN, a LMT and a trauma therapist all wrapped up in one package. But she doesn't take insurance. Bleh. I'm not sure I could start over anyway...my t is the first person I have ever trusted as much as I have...and that is bringing up all kinds of issues for me. Double bleh.
I have a hard time consistently tracking my physical state (can people actually DO this?) unless it is really intrusive and feels BAD. Is that not normal? I tend to reinjure stuff I've actually hurt (messed up my shoulder on a boat last summer) unless I am REALLY careful and attentive. That injury was... qualitatively different than other stuff... but maybe it was just worse? How does one sort this stuff out?
I think some people actually can track their physical state consistently, and it allows them a measure of coordination both physically and emotionally. They seem to be able to do what needs to be done to stay balanced. I am practice, practice, practicing. Every time I think to be aware of my body, it's clear I've not been there at all. It's amazing what comes up when I do become aware. Like OH! I've had to pee for hours! or DAMN, I'm hungry! etc. It is interesting when this happens because I realize how out of touch I am with my body except, as you say, when the sensations are really intrusive. I think all my pain stuff, that is just always there to greater or lesser extent, is maybe my system's way of trying to ground me in my body. Like, PAY ATTENTION DUMMY! Geez, it's going on three years now with the sacrum/hip/leg issues...and now the neck stuff is back. Argh.

So how was the shoulder injury different for you? I'm curious. I've had injuries too that are qualitatively different (e.g., sprained ankle, shattered elbow, multiply broken finger, etc.). I realize though, that a) they probably happened because I was not "in my body" or paying attention (I'm one of those people that regularly bumps into walls and other people and even walks into things). And b) my responses to the injuries were what was "off." I just push push push through, until I collapse.

There are few people around to talk to about this stuff...the difference between body perception and body conception and where our consciousness is at any given time (usually zooming around outside of me...). I think people who inhabit their bodies comfortably cannot understand. Nor can people who are completely dissociated from their bodies with no sense at all of what it feels like to connect. I think those of us who can talk about it are living somewhere in between...
 
I hurt my shoulder when we were out on the lake with friends. They have a boat and one of those big raft-y things. It had spaces for four. Three sitting in the front and one kneeling behind. There were handles. I kneeled behind. My foot (or something) caught as we were going fast and my right arm tried to "save" me and didn't let go quick enough and my shoulder/bicep got pulled REALLY HARD. It hurt. I worried for a bit that I'd really "done" myself, but a little coaxing and it was better enough that I could get myself up on the boat (unsurprisingly, no one noticed I was injured. "I'm fine, really" its going to be on my tombstone.) and then... when I got home realized I couldn't really pick anything that weighed more than a glass of water up. Limited range of motion... blah blah blah. And it hurt when I tried. The pain was consistent across use. I think that was the difference. The hip thing comes and goes. The shoulder thing... I couldn't sleep on it, I couldn't brush my hair. It was really mechanically injured. I probably tore the ligaments a bit or stretched them all to shit. I slathered it with cortisone cream three times a day (Steriods! Yeah!) and I decided to baby the hell out of it - homemade sling, not driving like normal nothing, and it gradually got better.

This is different than, say the neck thing. The neck thing was acute for a few days, and then off and on for .... well, til now. Plus there wasn't anything that "happened" that injured it. And it'll be BAD and then, poof. Gone. Not consistent with any particular activities... just starts to hurt now and then.
 
"I'm fine, really" its going to be on my tombstone.)
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::cry::cry::cry:

What DO people say? Really?

Could you please help me? I've hurt myself? I'm ill? I can't do this? Gasp! Never! If we can't do it with an obvious physical injury...no wonder we have a hard time with emotional injury!

My epitaph will be, "I'll be okay, just give me a minute."

Did you ever get the shoulder looked at? Can cause neck pain too...but, then again, so can so many other things. Let's see, the 3-year old, the 5-year old, etc. :wtf: Guess they need to be babied just like the shoulder?!:wideeyed::woot::confused: But how the hell do you do that? Can't put a sling on inner children!
 
Our ashes can go next to each other in the mausoleum, in the "don't mind me.." aisle.
Yeah. This is probably why my therapist...such a good guy, so patient with my nutty self...tells me I need to learn to take up more space in the world. Way hard to do. NEED=DANGER. What is it with these darned ANPs that they feel like they have to be always strong and perfect? No wonder the EPs are revolting. I just keep doing my Leonardo DaVinci pose (you know, the one standing with arms and legs spread out). It's supposed to make me feel confident about occupying space.

Odd thing...I was somewhat involved with the occupy movement...but that was more about intellectual stuff. I'm not bad at that, even if it comes to marching and holding signs. It's the actual bodily occupation of my life that causes troubles. :yuck:
 
Hope4Now said: [DLMURL="https://www.myptsd.com/c/goto/post?id=825696#post-825696"]↑[/DLMURL]
Did you ever get the shoulder looked at?
HAHAHAHAHA....

:D:(:inpain::whistling:

If there wasn't much response from adults when we were kids and had pain, or if an abuser even got pleasure from our expressions of pain, we'd have pretty strong motivations not to feel the pain, if at all possible...

I actually had a shoulder problem looked a little more than a year ago, and the physical therapy folks have actually been really helpful; I guess working with them plus a trauma T and a couple other folks is what's helped me start to figure out just how disconnected from part of my body I've been... plus feel a bit safer with inhabiting it. On alternate Thursdays, if the moon is less than half full.:ninja:

I was pretty strongly expecting to be discounted at lots of points. I'd be shocked that it hasn't happened, except then I might have to believe this is real; today isn't Thursday after all.
 
I guess working with them plus a trauma T and a couple other folks is what's helped me start to figure out just how disconnected from part of my body I've been... plus feel a bit safer with inhabiting it. On alternate Thursdays, if the moon is less than half full.:ninja:
:roflmao::hug: It's a start! We do have to do it in small increments, don't we? I am so extreme that I think I send myself into chaos by pushing too hard. Maybe why I had such awful panic/flooding ickiness this weekend. Today, talking with my therapist about the part of me that makes me freeze and shut down...he said, "Well, it's a part you can always count on. It has probably saved your life more than once. We all have to have a part that does this for us when things just get to be too much." I think it was @shimmerz who said to start small...like a pinky or something. I have to remember that.
If there wasn't much response from adults when we were kids and had pain, or if an abuser even got pleasure from our expressions of pain, we'd have pretty strong motivations not to feel the pain, if at all possible...
This actually made me think...too much probably. Pain did get a response when I was a kid...but it was a totally panicked, anxious one from the mother, and I was always blamed for it by her (e.g., broken arm=you shouldn't have been playing with those kids; terrible virus=I told you you shouldn't have swum in that pond). Shamed for it by him (runt, wimp, etc.). Ugh. Sorry. TMI as we say. Too much information. But, seriously, thanks @greenleaf because your comment made me remember some more things. I will have to ponder this as far as my complicated relationship with chronic pain goes. THAT, above all, is my driving motivation to sort myself out. I would so like to not be in pain.
 
Throwing in some recent research I've been exploring.

Dr. Ruth Lanius has a 4D model for Dissociation, which can be used to break down 4 dimensions of traumatic memories into: Time, Thought, Body, and Emotion.
Building from past empirical and theoretical research Frewen and Lanius (2014) have proposed a four-dimensional model (4D-Model) that differentiates states of posttraumatic distress based on whether they intrinsically represent trauma-related altered states of consciousness (TRASC; i.e., dissociation symptoms), or states of normal-waking consciousness (NWC), the latter referring to states of distress, that while clinically significant, are not intrinsically dissociative in nature. The model is an extension of the phenomenological framework developed by Thompson and Zahavi (2007), which outlined the qualitative properties of human subjectivity or conscious experience. Thompson and Zahavi’s (2007) model has four dimensions, which are: 1) temporality (sense of time and memory), 2) narrative (the story-like quality of thought), 3) embodiment (the sense of having, and consciously belonging to a body), and 4) affect (the experience of emotions). The 4D-Model simplifies this structure by characterizing the four dimensions of consciousness as: 1) time, 2) thought, 3) body, and 4) emotion, respectively (Frewen & Lanius, 2014).
--- source: Honors thesis by a student of Dr Frewen: http://ir.lib.uwo.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1018&context=psychd_uht
Linking this 4D model with current discussion, I think that the unresolved pain and EPs are a combination of body memories that started out as emotion (triggering) and then got covered up with thought. Then as the memories are trying to process and get integrated they start invading a 3rd dimension of body, but that presents itself as pain and threatening because the 4th dimension of Time is missing.

Bessel van der Kolk uses a brain stress model with descriptive labels of Smoke Detector (amygdala), Watchtower (frontal lobes), Cook (thalamus) and Timekeeper (dorsolateral prefrontal cortex: DLPFC).

This section describes interaction of 'cook' with low road 'smoke detector' and high road (slower) 'watchtower':
Danger is a normal part of life, and the brain is in charge of detecting it and organizing our response. Sensory information about the outside world arrives through our eyes, nose, ears, and skin. These sensations converge in the thalamus, an area inside the limbic system that acts as the “cook” within the brain. The thalamus stirs all the input from our perceptions into a fully blended autobiographical soup, an integrated, coherent experience of “this is what is happening to me.” The sensations are then passed on in two directions—down to the amygdala, two small almond-shaped structures that lie deeper in the limbic, unconscious brain, and up to the frontal lobes, where they reach our conscious awareness. The neuroscientist Joseph LeDoux calls the pathway to the amygdala “the low road,” which is extremely fast, and that to the frontal cortex the “high road,” which takes several milliseconds longer in the midst of an overwhelmingly threatening experience. However, processing by the thalamus can break down. Sights, sounds, smells, and touch are encoded as isolated, dissociated fragments, and normal memory processing disintegrates. Time freezes, so that the present danger feels like it will last forever.
-- The Body Keeps the Score - Bessel van der Kolk
This section describes how the timekeeper collapses under trauma:
Two brain systems are relevant for the mental processing of trauma: those dealing with emotional intensity and context. Emotional intensity is defined by the smoke alarm, the amygdala, and its counterweight, the watchtower, the medial prefrontal cortex. The context and meaning of an experience are determined by the system that includes the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC) and the hippocampus. The DLPFC is located to the side in the front brain, while the MPFC is in the center. The structures along the midline of the brain are devoted to your inner experience of yourself, those on the side are more concerned with your relationship with your surroundings

The DLPFC tells us how our present experience relates to the past and how it may affect the future—you can think of it as the timekeeper of the brain. Knowing that whatever is happening is finite and will sooner or later come to an end makes most experiences tolerable. The opposite is also true—situations become intolerable if they feel interminable. Most of us know from sad personal experience that terrible grief is typically accompanied by the sense that this wretched state will last forever, and that we will never get over our loss. Trauma is the ultimate experience of “this will last forever.”

Stan’s scan reveals why people can recover from trauma only when the brain structures that were knocked out during the original experience—which is why the event registered in the brain as trauma in the first place—are fully online. Visiting the past in therapy should be done while people are, biologically speaking, firmly rooted in the present and feeling as calm, safe, and grounded as possible. ... Being anchored in the present while revisiting the trauma opens the possibility of deeply knowing that the terrible events belong to the past. For that to happen, the brain’s watchtower, cook, and timekeeper need to be online. Therapy won’t work as long as people keep being pulled back into the past.
-- The Body Keeps the Score - Bessel van der Kolk
So when memories don't get processed and stored properly with all the ingredients of 4D (time, thought, body sensation, emotion), because of a failure of watchtower, cook and timekeeper all being functionally online. These incomplete memories end up getting clumped together and stored in areas of the body. (ie. pain in the neck, lower back pain, heavy shoulder burdens, tension in thighs, etc.) But these incomplete memories also want an end of story, seeking to be completed and integrated into long term memory. So they lie relatively dormant, sorta 'waiting in line', waiting for an opportunity to latch onto any new stimulus which has similar emotional frequency and suffering pain. And then when that opportunity comes, they flood the nervous system, piggy-backing on top of the recent trigger, often creating an over-reaction and emotional flashbacks.

This experience is confusing to the watchtower and with repeated re-traumatizing experiences of this, ANPs are developed and refined to counter, control, and limit these outbursts and perceived attacks by EPs, which are clustered around baskets of emotional suffering of similar frequency or associations.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Donation drives

2026 Donation Goal

Goal
$1,800.00
Earned
$910.00
This donation drive ends in
0 hours, 0 minutes, 0 seconds
  50.6%

Trending content

Featured content

Back
Top Bottom