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News Why It's So Hard To Talk To White People About Racism

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It's actually helping determine how each different experience shapes us. As cultures, nations, groups living within both, and individuals

It seemed to be relevant to the discussion.

There's shades going on, there's colorism going on, there's nationalisms interfering with how people view 'white' on its own, who's 'white' in Europe is not 'white' in the US and 'white' in both Asia and Africa are different if one speaks local languages and dialects and follows the cultural clues, much similar to other races, 'far I know of.

Do you have affirmative action, civil rights, EEOC and set asides for minorities where you are now?

Different cultures discriminate in different ways. Look at Robert Mugabe in Africa or the caste system in India. It may depend on who is different in a country or culture. There is even discrimination among blacks in the USA depending who is lighter or darker.
 
Do you have affirmative action, civil rights, EEOC...

Affirmative action - not, and not in the codified US sense. There's just people that have historically worked against the state & were prosecuted as institutions that are willing to let students pass & make it easier on them, that are working toward being safe shelters for people, and NGOs working for equality, along with cooperation of communities of people treated as ''not national enough'', whether it's because appearance, ethnicity, language, religion, or other statuses. Not in the state sense. In a non-profit, outside the government, sense.

Civil rights, most often on paper, and having them applied in practice, is a long and ongoing legal battle. Especially in recent developments, freedom of speech & assembly & political and human rights expression has been quite actively shut down by governmental agencies, in a manner that's deniable.

And true, there IS discrimination based on colorism and historical rivalties - but again, Black-on-Black violence isn't comparable to systemic violences, is more a reaction to it, and internalizations from other systems enforced.

I'm not willing to speak on Africa in detail, though suffice to say great many divisions have to do with collonial rules, adopted categories because of these rules, tribal conflicts turned into worse with having to deal with systems of power that wasn't native to the continent and isn't comprehensible in the continent's type of understanding, and none of that gets taken into account every so often. A lot of 'so violent Africa' is to supply & propaganda of other countries, that benefit from it spread, and private interests that can use those gaps to their great benefit.
 
That's called anecdotal evidence. I'm not asking for that. They do not represent a whole, just themselves. It does not make their experience any less real. It's just not proof that white privilege exists. You went on such a leap I feel the need to point this out.

Pick up almost any sociology or cultural anthropology text.

White Privilege exists in most of the West, the exact same way that Asian Privilege exists in most of the East.

In certain cultures where caste systems are in place, or tribal superiority, (or a few other social constructs) the caste or tribal system (or similar) supercedes this much looser construct.

Racial Privilege exists in regions where there is both a clear majority (in either numbers, or social powers - think white minority in South Africa... There are other examples in Asia & Africa, but most westerners are familiar with Apartheid ), and a fairly recent history of institutionalized racism even if the convention no longer exists. That's the part that's hard for members of the majority to usually wrap their heads around.

To use the US as an example...
- After the abolition of slavery in the 1860s, the majority view was that "the negro" was now equal (it was a pissed off view, for a lot of people, afraid of jobs being taken/ or that they "shouldn't" think they were as good as a white man/ etc., but it was still the majority held view that "the negro" was equal whether they were determined to kick them in the teeth over that or not), even though we very much know that equality was not the case, in law or in practice.
- After the equal rights movement in the 1970s, again the majority view is that "white privilege" is a made up thing / "But I'm not racist!" Or "Privilege my ass, I grew up in the gutter and I'm white!" Being the two most common arguments against it. But both arguments are like saying that racism in the states didn't exist after slavery was abolished, or that racism didn't exist after slavery was abolished because there were poor white people.

Racial Privilege is a TRANSITIONAL GAP, what happens between state sanctioned racism, and true equality. In general it lasts 3-5 generations.

Presently, in most of the West, it's "White Privilege". Historically, it can still be race-based but subdivisions within a race (similar to Black Russians v White Russians... When both are Caucasian). Or nationality based (think of Irish & Italian Immigrants). To the point that there are still signs around (museums mostly) of businesses barring "negroes & Irish" (or niggers & micks).

The gap with Irish & Italian Immigrants closed right around WWII. Irish more around WWI, but they'd not only enmassed here first, but almost single handledly took over the police force of most major cities at the time within a couple generations. Italians came enmasse a bit later, and not only didn't bulwark themselves into the government, the same way but had a nasty political structure back in Italy marking them the same way refugees are marked and looked down upon now (think especially of "Mexican" immigrants and how they're treated, even though tons and tons of Latin immigrants are from a huge number of meso & South American countries... The trend exists on a global scale; if we don't like the government you're fleeing from? We don't like you. It doesn't make sense, but it really does exist worldwide.) it was the "Roman Method" that really assimilated the Italians. Enlisting in the military = American Citizenship back in WWII, and whatever name you enlisted under? Became your legal name. There was serious talk of interning Italian-Americans right along with the Japanese, but Pearl Harbor saw millions of Italian Americans dropping the O or I at the end of their last name when dad or big brother enlisted to serve (all dependents = automatic name change in the 1940s when head of household changed their name). It was done mostly out of fear of internment, but it had the added benefit of anglicizing a huge portion of the Italian American community / making them more acceptable to the Anglo majority with French sounding last names, and the war really finished the assimilation for most.

Here in the states the Irish & Italians were the last subdivisions of "white" to be assimilated.

From 1945-present? "White" has been a unified description here in the states. It only took about 200 years for that to happen here :p English v Dutch v French v etc. And, yes. In a lot of cases it took a war to start the 3-5 generation gap. Bonds of brotherhood, indeed. (In other countries that's been true longer, shorter, or still isn't true -Hi, Russia!-)

Back to racial privilege!!!

We can really thank WWII & Vietnam for fueling the civil rights movement down here stateside. But that did, eventually, kick off. And from the 70s onward? We have started our 3-5 generation gap.

Essentially... Everyone who ever existed in sanctioned racism has die. And then their children who loved them have to get old. Wars help speed that process up, but are more instrumental in starting the process than finishing it.

***

I mentioned about a novel & a half ago that Asian Privilege exists in the east. Historically, the same patterns of wars to kick off the process of the racial privilege gap, and 3-5 generations to end it, hold true. The Middle East, Near East, & Africa usually use different social constructs. Tends to be more tribal based (Western cultures have tribal examples; Highland vs Lowland Clans in Scotland, Clans against Clans, and Clans against the English just one of several; and Eastern/African cultures have racial examples).

It's a very human phenomenon.

We don't transition easily, as a species. We like our routines. Individuals always vary, but as a whole we are slow to change. Social change takes generations to effect.
 
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Just a question here @FridayJones as I'm not completely catching up on what you mean here with 'Asian Privilege' - are you talking about say Japan vs. Korea, Chinese vs. Japan vs. India differences, Mongolian exclusion by so many, & in general the south-east vs. north-east divisions in mentality?
 
''not national enough''

Sounds like the old USSR. Maybe some growing pains or stuck in the old ways.

Black-on-Black violence isn't comparable to systemic violences, is more a reaction to it, and internalizations from other systems enforced.

I didn't mean to imply that there is violence in relation to light skin vs dark skin. It's more social acceptability issues. Check Wikipedia "paper bag party" and it might explain better.

What I mean about Africa is Robert Mugabe has taken or his policies have allowed farms from the original white owners to taken at gun point.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is being different depends on where you are and when your are. Racism or bigotry can be universal.
 
@Cashew... Meaning that in much of the Far East, White/Black/Indian/Islander/Latin/etc. populations in Asian countries tend to meet with the same problems that people of color meet in the West. Can't get your kids into the good schools, can't move into the good neighborhoods, difficult to find work & the work available is generally lower paying, are paying different costs for goods at the market, are targeted by both criminals & police, are not taken seriously by the majority that there is a problem of any kind and the few exceptions (diplomats, wealthy, etc.) are pointed out as what you "could" do (because clearly there is nothing society is doing, you're just lazy ;)). Meanwhile people are wiping things you've touched, your kid was clearly the troublemaker -never mind is was 12:1 and they're the one bleeding in the street-, shops have signs that don't allow you in them, etc. LOL. Yeah. It's me. I'm lazy ;)

It's just minority bullshit. Same thing, different players.

***

Of course, in much of the Far East, there's still out and out racism /or subracism (light skinned Asian "preferable" over dark skinned Asian), & nationalism (Japan v Korea v China)... It's not a privilege thing, but a ISM thing even if it's against the law, or a legal thing. Like what you said.

And in parts of the FarEast, it's WhitePriv in spades... Wealthy Tourists & Associated Govts.
 
What I mean about Africa is Robert Mugabe has taken or his policies have allowed farms from the original white owners to taken at gun point.

I'll respond more later Bill, though - that isn't quite illustrative of the same phenomenon. Keep in mind who Robert Mugabe IS, as a person, what his policies toward any dissent are. There is a much larger problem going on and in some cases, really is about different dynamics than racism, very much more.

It would not have mattered if they were white. It would not have mattered if Black, if any other race. Demonstration of power in some corners of the world? Is really just that. Way across the spectrum, shit for everyone crushed by it.
 
wtf-did-i-just-read-smoke-signals.webp
 
There is a much larger problem going on and in some cases, really is about different dynamics than racism, very much more.

There are lots of dynamics going on in the former colonies in Africa but you don't think there are Racist and Bigoted issues with Robert Mugabe?

To which phenomenon are you referring?
 
No, I think those issues really aren't something anyone over there is most concerned with.

When you have people influencing the whole region, teamed up with similarly minded people, for whom institutions as ICC are just a big joke?

Racism is really the last thing that worries anyone about them.
 
Wikipedia:

The United Kingdom once condemned Mugabe's authoritarian policies and alleged racist attitudes as being comparable to those of German Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler. A response came during the state funeral for a Zimbabwean Cabinet minister in March 2003. Mugabe telling journalists "I am still the Hitler of the time, [...] This Hitler has only one objective, justice for his own people, sovereignty for his people, recognition of the independence of his people, and their right to their resources. If that is Hitler, then let me be a Hitler tenfold. Ten times, that is what we stand for."

I imagine the land owner who is killed and his land taken was a little concerned about it.

What is or who is the ICC?
 
I get writing posts that are more like novels.

But I’m only going to address one part of your post.

When you wrote...

- After the equal rights movement in the 1970s, again the majority view is that "white privilege" is a made up thing / "But I'm not racist!" Or "Privilege my ass, I grew up in the gutter and I'm white!" Being the two most common arguments against it. But both arguments are like saying that racism in the states didn't exist after slavery was abolished, or that racism didn't exist after slavery was abolished because there were poor white people.

...you wrote that the person says they’re not racist. That means they acknowledge racism exists. And then you write that their arguments are like saying that racism doesn’t exist.

You see where that doesn’t make sense?
 
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