Why The Rage You Ask, Ok, Here's Why.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I've seen young men with limbs torn from their bodies, others with holes in their chest covered with pieces of plastic so they wouldn't drown in their own blood, each waiting patiently at the LZ for their turn to be evacuated. Those fine young men (and women too) risked all simply because their country asked them to.

The wounds that they suffered will never truely heal, and they will never return completely to what they left behind. Yet, they go on, each in their own way, trying to find a place in a world where they will never agian fit.

In that same country that so willingly sent them into the killing fields to kill, suffer and die I've seen blood sucking bankers with more personal wealth than they could spend in ten lifetimes rape an economy simply so that they could aquire even more of what they didn't need and had no right to expect. And, the nation's government allowed it to happen.

And, I've watched that same nation allow private companies to profit from the conflicts that costs so many of its young citizens so much. Will I ever be able to accept this? NEVER. Will the rage return? ALWAYS, AND FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

SD

 

[JarHed]

Hey SD

I agree with you completely. But I have to say that it's really tearing you up. I wish I could help in some way, but the truth is that I feel the same. Unfortunately, this is the way of the world, has been and will be forever, or as long as that is. You've either got to be part of something that can make a difference, in some way to vets or others or try to move on. I mean this with all the respect that I have for you and everyone here. I'm stuck in the same problems as well. In a way, my feet are turning to clay. But I sometimes I think this, I don't know if it helps, but here goes.

I think I saw it once as 'The Irish Prayer'.

God, grant me the serenity to change the things I can, accept the things I can't and the wisdom to know the difference.

I hope that things get better for you SD, let me know if there's something that I can do to help.

From my room, alone,

Jar

 

[Fargo1]

SD I struggle with the same thoughts. Its interesting that my parents were from your generation. My dad's side of the family has a long tradition of military service (every generation since coming to the American Continent), my mother's father was a WWII vet. Growing up, my mother was staunchly against the VN war and staunchly against me joining the military. My father always said to me, "The only reason you should ever go to war, is if the President is willing to send his own children to the front lines."

But there was something in me that had to do it.

As a culture we frequently make an assumption that our brain has overcome our biology. I think this is far from the case. I can see the biological reasons for us to form groups (safety in numbers). I can see the reason for greed (when you never know where the next meal is coming from, more is better). I can see the reason for fighters (you gotta have guys ready to fight to protect the group and protect the food). Back in the dim beginnings, Grunk was sitting in the cave one day munching on berries, and noticed that Unk and Otto (who were at the time standing watch at the cave entrance) were really much better at fighting than he was, though he was tough enough to keep the rest of the tribe from eating all the berries. So in a quick conversation that night, Grunk was able to convince Unk and Otto that the three of them could all eat better if he stayed inside protecting the food, while they were outside protecting the cave... And we got the first "banker" and "soldiers"... Nothing really new under the Sun.

But it makes me wonder, back in those dark days, did Unk and/or Otto suffer from PTSD after fighting off wolves, cave bears, and other tribes? Or did the sophistication of our societies grow faster than human biology could change?

 

[JarHed]

But it makes me wonder, back in those dark days, did Unk and/or Otto suffer from PTSD after fighting off wolves, cave bears, and other tribes? Or did the sophistication of our societies grow faster than human biology could change?

Personally, I'd say yes. Anyone that experiences a trauma, whether combat, car accident, or any other type would experience an after affect. Our reactions to things are still pretty basic as I see it. So, even in the caves without cell phones and such they would have had it. Good question, you seem to have a lot of them.

 

[Sleeping Dragon]

Thank you Jar. That old Irishman knew how to pray. I guess it tears me up because I won't allow myself to let it go. But, it feels like letting it go makes it alright, and it's not. Someone has to hold leadership responsible.

To Fargo's story. I have all the respect for the ones guarding the cave entrance cause I was one of them. And, I appreciate the guy managing the berries to make sure all get their fair share. My problem is with the ass hole hiding in the shadows saying to himself. "If I wait til they're asleep I can grab bunches of berries for myself. Then while half are fighting, and the rest are hungry, I can get fat".

That's the one who has no business in the cave. That's the blood sucking leach who makes it tougher on everyone. He's easy to spot. He's wearing a pin striped suit, riding in a limo, and has berry juice running down his chin.

SD

 

[vikingr12]

Focus. Those who did not serve had a purpose too, except for the ones who overtly confronted you. Two paratroops and I were in the Dallas Airport (I have told this story before) waiting for our next ride. We hooked up because then you had to wear a uniform to get a discount. One of the Army guys had a bad scar on his face. HIs lip was messed up and he just looked bad. But we sat down in the middle of the trash generation. I would not dignify them by calling them hippies. There comments like "murderer" and "How's your face now tough guy?"

That last one hurt and I stood up. I was going to have somebody's ass in my hand. I wanted my .45 at my hip but alas this is civilian country. We are supposed to be safe, right?

I told them to F$uck off and leave us alone. I guess they listened.But I told the other two to get out of here. Some of those people were actually embarrassed but did not say a word.

It's OK not to go but don't give me trouble because I did. And if you faught against the war, I probably would have joined you. I had dreams of LBJ washing his hands in blood every night. HE is the one responsible. HE is the one in the pinstriped suit. Focus on the right ones.

Shortly after, the word got out that all we had to do was show an ID instead of a uniform to get the discount.

Times will change. Sometimes you have to make it change.

 

[Fargo1]

Jar,

I agree that it is likely the case that some of our cave-cestors experienced PTSD. Which leads me to the next question: What's the evolutionary benefit to PTSD? My therapist and I have gone in depth into the functions of the amygdala, memory and such. And I can see the effects being useful (remembering dangerous situations, ability to be "turned on" at a moments notice). But the detrimental effects (nightmares, chronic hostility, lack of sleep) are pretty serious detriments to both individual and group survival. It seems like Otto or Unk would be as out-of-place as you or I in the cave, so why keep them around? Or would they just off themselves? If so, those DNA combinations would eventually die out (assuming it happens prior to them having children). Or is it that they had such short lifespans anyway, that other things killed them off as often as not so it stuck around.

SD,
I was sitting here trying to boil it down to the simplest form.

After generations of guarding the berries and cave, people started specializing even more. As each civilization rises, things get more and more specialized — hunter-gatherers, to domestication of animals, to farmers, etc., Grunk's offspring sat there and realized that if he set aside some berries, they could sit back and not do any guarding, they could pay someone to do the guarding for them — which eventually led to a guy in a pinstripe suit scamming all the money, while other guys wrote laws to protect them in return for some of that money, while other guys learned to become warriors...

"The more things change the more they remain the same."

Specialized civilizations also fall. Once they fall, the guys doing the guarding tend to rise to the top. During the Dark Ages, the meanest guy with the biggest sword was the boss. He got the most food, the best house, the best women and called himself Duke, Prince or King in return he and his followers guarded. Meanwhile, the merchants declined in power. Like now, the majority of people's lives weren't so hot. Its clear that dark ages feudal society was pretty grim for the peasants and serfs...

So why did Unk and Otto allow Grunk to put on a suit and steal all their shit?

 

[JarHed]

Hey Fargo

You're not going to make me start thinking a lot, are you? I like your insight and I think about and have talked to my doc about the same things.

Lately, though, I've gotten into the mindset of not doing so much of that and just taking each day as it comes. Doesn't mean I don't want to talk about this stuff, I do.

We all know we have this condition and it's for life. I still have some severe depression and anxiety attacks. They suck. But I don't look anymore for the root cause as much as just try to get through it. I try to modify how I'm feeling to lessen the negative effects of those things. Sometimes I do OK and other times I don't. I still have some crumby ass days but now at least I have some good ones as well. I've regained or shall I say I've started to work at living again.

I think I'll always be like you asking; 'WHY' and wondering. Good thread.

 

[Sarg]

As to the question of how far back PTSD goes, I offer this in hopes it will put things into better perspective...

This “Nez Perce Warrior’s Reflection” though, is a quite a list of things to deal with. Makes PTSD a little bit more than only a medical term.
———

They said I would be changed in my body.

I would move through the physical world in a different manner.
I would hold myself in a different posture.
I would have pain where there was no blood.
I would react to sights, sounds, movement and touch in a crazy way,
as though I were back in war.

They said I would be wounded in my thoughts.
I would forger how to trust,
and I would think that others were trying to hurt me.
I would see dangers in the kindness and concern of my relatives and others.

Most of all, I would not be able to think in a reasonable manner,
and it would seem that everyone else was crazy.

They told me that it would appear to me that I was alone
even in the midst of the people, and that there was no one else like me.

They warned me that it would be as though my emotions were locked up,
and I would be cold in my heart
and not remember the ways of caring for others.

While I might give meat and blankets to the elders, or food to the children,
I would not be able to feel the goodness of these actions.
That I would do these things out of habit and not from caring.
They predicted that I might do harm to others without plan or intention.

They knew that my spirit would be wounded.

They said I would be lonely and that I would find no comfort
in family, friends, elders or spirits.
I would be cut off from both beauty and pain.
My dreams would be dark and frightening.
My days would be filled with searching and not finding.
I would not be able to find connections between myself
and the rest of creation.
I would look forward to an early death.

And, I would need cleansing in all these things.

Above Submitted by Tom”Doc”Duthie 4/47 9th I.D. “67″

And as far as you're concerned, SD, why are you hurting yourself to get back at people that don't even merit your attention? I used to hate. Used to rage. Then I realized it wasn't doing a damn thing to the people I hated and those I raged at, so why the hell do it. It only made me drink more, smoke more cigarettes and put me in a permanent shitty mood.

So, I act like they do...inconsiderate, oblivious to their concerns, snotty, refuse to use signals when I drive, yes, as a matter of fact I DO own the f-ing road, then I found out it was fun!

Folks that do me right, I do right. Folks that feed me shit, get a whole truckload back.

Stop hurting yourself, SD. We'd like to have you around for a while and not in some intensive care ward.

Sarg

 

[Drgnner]

I like the Nez Perce reflections. I do have a question though.

I wonder what part of the village the Nez Perce warriors lived in. Did they live in the center of the village where it was busy with the hustle and bustle of children and women and daily life or did they live on the outer edge of the village, on guard and together with other warriors?

I know that for me it would be on the edge of the village. Out of the normal daily routines of village life.

Thats how I live now and for me it is the only way.

 

[Fargo1]

You're not going to make me start thinking a lot, are you? I like your insight and I think about and have talked to my doc about the same things.

Sorry Jar, no, not trying to get you thinking! :-)

I am constantly asking questions about myself, my life, and the world. I realize that I think too much (as did my DI in boot, "Fargo, you think too much. Stop sweating the load and just carry it. Now get on your face!"). However, being a proponent of the scientific method, I think that trying to get to the causes (the physical, mental, and metaphysical) of our combined problem can help us better understand its mechanics and someday be able to do more than just treat the symptoms. The drugs attempt to mitigate the symptoms. Therapy helps us understand and teaches ways to deal with our symptoms. But neither are a "cure." I don't think there will ever be a pill you can take to cure PTSD. So until we evolve out of fighting each other, we are going to have men and women like us who fight the fights. It will also have accidents, etc., creating traumas. So I ask questions and questions and more questions...

 

[Sarg]

Excellent question with a number of answers. I'm most familiar with the southwest tribes. The Apache didn't have villages as such , but rather lived in caves or protected canyons, whatever nature provided. They weren't that domestic, relying on the Navajo and other tribes in AZ to provide food and supplies and, in turn, protected them.

The Apache were very security aware, often having outpost miles away from villages but close enough to ride back and warn folks to take cover.

The plains tribes had a more organized village that moved about en-mass and common sense would suggest that they would have the warriors and their families at the outer perimeter of the village. And, you're right, it would be a more placid existence unless encroached upon.

This is not hard and fast rules here. We also have whole faces of cliffs carved out for living quarters of a rather large tribe. Who? When? We don't know. The southwest has so many native American ruins, it would take many years and many archeologists just to excavate and study them.

We have some great museums that are built over the ruins and there are walkways and handrails around and above and it's a kick to walk around and see the pottery, dwellings, and excavation techniques used.

Sorry. Didn't mean to do a class on the subject. Can't help it.

Sarg