News Woody Allen Is Not A Monster. He Is A Person. Like My Father.

[Pencil]

@Abstract
I'm exhausted so please don't expect much.

I went back to find the statement that I was responding to, but found it in a PC, which means I have to approach this from another, more oblique angle.

Let's imagine the author of the article googled his pseudonym and found this thread, how do you think he would feel? Let's put ourselves in his shoes. Well, I'm not sure that it would be an exhilarating experience - and I'm not sure he would see the disclosure / exposure as having been worth it. He might, for instance, look at my comments and think, quite justifiably, that I get in a tizzy about his scintillating prose, but entirely bypass the content. Which is what I did. Which means that I would have reacted in exactly the same manner if he had written about the perfect puff pastry. Which is true. I did not 'see' him, his experience. Rather invalidating of him in terms of the real issue here. (This means that I had no right to comment on comments on his style, whether positively or negatively.) Other members focused on other side issues in a similar manner.Some responded 'just right'.

To get to the point: I think the author would have expected THIS forum to have responded impeccably. But this forum is still a microcosm of the world. And child sexual abuse is as difficult to face head on in here as it is out there.

 

[Valentino]

Perhaps it really has to do with the author standing there naked, and we don't really know where to look or how to react.

This is a great point. Society as a whole and people in general do not know how to react. They don't know how to simply fully listen and honor another person's story. It's extremely difficult to simply and genuinely bear witness to someone else's tragic story of suffering. When we fully listen, that's a way of letting our walls down, and we join in another person's suffering, and through empathy we can feel their pain just like it was our own.

This emotional connection can be very scary and foreign to most. So many unconsciously break away from genuine listening, and jump to unconscious reactive mode. Attacking by seeking vengeance, sending anger and hate towards the abuser or abusers. Or defending by jumping into save the world rescue mode, trying to protect the feelings of victims or potential victims.

There are very few people in the world who can simply just sit there and honor the story of suffering. This can allow that person to feel heard, to feel normal, to feel accepted, to be loved as they are, and to start to feel whole. That often is the gigantic missing piece of the puzzle for their healing and recovery.

 

[ms spock]

To get to the point: I think the author would have expected THIS forum to have responded impeccably. But this forum is still a microcosm of the world. And child sexual abuse is as difficult to face head on in here as it is out there.

I refused to do TV or video stuff but I did radio, conferences, talks etc when I was much younger. And people are just people - we all make mistakes and for some people it is too hard to think about. If someone responds even if I don't agree with what they say or how they manage the situations. At least they are engaging with it in their own way. It takes a long time to come to terms with this stuff, if we ever do. All conversation is a practical baby step towards intergenerational change.

It really is a case that each conversation about child sexual abuse and about managing child rapists is pretty important. Because as we can look and see it is not something managed at all well by our society and culture, in law and even for a number of people who are therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists.

Even those of us who have always lived with this as a part of ourselves as part of us as entities - we manage better some times than other times.

I think robust discussion with our passionate opinions about it all are important along with compassion to where someone is at in their learning/ thinking process. If people can't make statements, which is a way of working thinks out. If people can't have opinions that we may or may not disagree with depending where we are with our own abuse stuff, then discussion is stymied and social change slips further back behind the horizon.

Compassion for ourselves is essential, and compassion is also essential for people testing out their ideas and trying to piece it all together.

No one is going to go from not knowing much, to being well versed in the multiplicity of situations and contexts about child rapists, their place in our families and broader communities and child sexual abuse, without much thought and lots of discussions.

Some things are a bit too hard and scary to do on your own. This one will need all of us to solve it. Though I don't hold up much hope of us seeing much social change in my life time, but I consider all education and conversations as investing in the futures of those children that will come after us.

 

[Valentino]

Valentino said: ↑
totally demonize anyone with potential of child sexual abuse

Totally untrue but I am not going further as it is already taking this thread off track. I am therefore not going say more than peodophilia is not curable but other abuse is. It is not about demonising and is about looking at the reality and dealing with the situation appropriately. I think this needs to be discussed on a new thread if further discussion is needed as it isn't relevant here. Just my opinion.

I've been accused for mis-reading this thread.

I would like to get clarification and some details so that I can better understand how I could get something that I thought I understood and read pretty clear in this thread.

Why can't we humanize pedophiles? But we can humanize admitted violent angry physically abusive wives?

I'm actually open to humanizing humans, all humans. But that doesn't mean that I overlook or excuse bad behavior. Especially consistent patterns of behavior.

 

[Abstract]

Vaalentino. I swore I would leave this thread alone but here I am again. :rolleyes: I really need to take myself in hand.

There were no charges or evidence of him being a child abuser.

Do you realise that being in possession of child porn does make someone guilty? I am not sure if you realised me saying this before had nothing at all to do with whether I can empathise with the story or not. As it happens I can and can also see how it would be possible.

Saying something isn't abuse when it is or condoning it or excusing it not right or helpful. Not helpful to the person abusing as well as anyone else. Understanding why and even caring about why is a separate issue.

There are many people on this site who have been the victims of child porn. Every time child porn is viewed the child is abused again.

Calling something what it is is not demonising and is merely dealing with the situation at hand. It is also not shaming to call a behaviour what it is.

Clinically speaking paedophilia is not treatable. The other thread is about someone acting out in violence and that is very treatable. They are totally different things. Acknowledging that pedophilia isn't treatable and looking at ways to manage it is about the practicalities of the situation (with people having slightly different opinions of what that should be) and is not about demonising.

I think this is exactly one of the things that keeps the whole thing going. People either can't acknowledged the reality that someone is not going to be cured and therefore will always need to be managed in some way (to me that means therapy, education, monitoring, educating those around them, limiting access), disbelieve the person victimised as they can't cope with the reality and how it changes their world, or imagine that someone who does something like this looks and acts like a monster all the time and when they don't see that in the person in front of them then they think all will be well.

The opinions on this thread that I imagine you are referring to are about how best to get the public to change and help the problem. It is not about demonising abusers.

All people have good and bad in various amounts and all people deserve to be treated humanely. Not facing reality just perpetuates abuse.

 

[Valentino]

So is it your position that since pedophilia is not incurable or not treatable, therefore there is no need to humanize these types of humans?

And do you not value or recognize the legal differences between possession of child porn and the physical act of child sexual abuse?

Or do you just clump people who watch consciously watch child pornography as automatically pedophiles?

Demonizing maybe is too loaded a term? I equate it with de-humanizing a person, which is not recognizing their humanity. The demonizing part is the active judgement and anger that is projected onto them in addition to dehumanizing them.

My personal view is that it's more about aggressive personalities vs. prey or normal personalities. Some people are born with predator like aggressive personalities. The ones who aren't highly skilled end up being caught with lower end sexual crimes or other crimes of aggression. But the higher skilled intelligent predators, can end up as high as corporate CEOs or high level politicians. They learn the art of being wolves dressed in sheep's clothing.

Aggressive personalities are still human though, but their primary motivations are totally different. And some can even get depressed or have PTSD. However their therapy needs a much different approach. They are motivated more by aggression and self gain, while other personality types are more neurotic and motivated by fear and insecurity.

There are many people on this site who have been the victims of child porn. Every time child porn is viewed the child is abused again.

This is a subtle form of a shaming statement. It is a strong black and white statement, rigidly and firmly stated as if it's 100% true. If the other person reading it does not totally agree, then they feel shame or doubt.

Here's an example where it might not be absolutely true:

There are more and more recent news stories related to teenage sexting. In one recent story a girl actively shared naked child pornography photos of herself to others guys via sexting. Are the teenage guys or maybe technically adult at age 18 or above, now pedophiles? Is that girl getting abused again and again, when she voluntarily shared her naked photos and consciously sent them to others? Is she being served by being forced by the police to testify publicly and endure social shame by the whole public knowing all the exact details of her actions. And all of this might have started with innocent motives, she could've been simply using technology to aggressively flirt and try to get attention from guys?

 

[Valentino]

Did some googling and there's tons of teenage sexting articles, including the complex challenges of how the police and district attorneys deal with them..

The specific details of the article I was referring to is a bit different..

A 16 year old girl posted a naked self-portrait on twitter, and is now charged with felony charge of child pornography.

http://articles.dailypress.com/2014...40212_1_james-city-county-mary-law-wrong-call

By the strict letter of the law, she did manufacture, possess and distribute child pornography when she posted that photo of herself. Everyone who saw it was, again using the law's specific definition, complicit in a serious offense.

James City County police, following an anonymous tip, concluded a felony child pornography charge was appropriate. Conviction usually results in jail time and listing on a sex offender registry, but it is likely that she will only be referred to a sexting education program.

The felony charge may force her to complete the program and help deter others from similar behavior. But to equate the behavior of a misguided girl to that of a pedophile is an abasement of the term child pornography. Words do have meaning, and what this girl did is in no logical sense the same as what child pornographers peddle.

Should we consider everyone who viewed her tweet as abusing a child?

Similar cases:

[DLMURL]http://www.vagazette.com/news/va-vg-pornography-charge-folo-0212-20140211,0,6812292,full.story[/DLMURL]
A 2009 sexting case in Greensburg, Pa., also drew wide coverage. Six teens faced child pornography charges after photos were discovered on a cell phone seized by staff at one of the schools the teens attended. According to NBC News, three girls are accused of sending nude or partially nude photos of themselves to three boys via cell phones. CBS News reported that all but one boy accepted a lesser misdemeanor charge.

Last year, the ACLU of Pennsylvania announced it might sue over sexting charges filed against two middle school students, also in Greensburg. A 13-year-old girl reportedly sent a topless photo to a 14-year-old boy. In a report on TribLive.com, an ACLU representative argued that the girl's actions of creating a photo are protected under the Constitution and noted the boy did not distribute the photo. It's unclear if the suit was filed.

Stephanie Williams-Ortery with James City Police said the 16-year-old girl here admitted to sending the photos she posted to young men. Statistics from national studies collected on GuardChild.com indicate that 20 percent of teens have sent or posted nude or partially nude photos, and 51 percent of teen girls admitted pressure from a boy was the reason they sent a sexual message or photo.

 

[Lost Pup]

May I suggest a new thread if this is to become a discussion about child pornography?

Also, since you put it out there - no, we should not consider someone who saw her tweet as abusing a child because this is a sensational, strawman scenario that is really about the problem of whether or not a 16 yo "minor" has the autonomy to do what she wants with her own body. But it's a distraction from the real and urgent questions around child pornography, the vast majority of which have to do with active involvement in organized abuse.

But, in general, should we consider people who view child pornography (a multi-billion dollar industry) as complicit in supporting the networks in which such images circulate? Hell, yeah.

 

[Valentino]

If the assumption is that pedophiles are not treatable and therefore less human or non human. Then there becomes a huge and difficult challenge of how to protect or limit their damage within the legal system.

Then the difficulty lies in specific definitions of what qualifies a person as legally pedophile, then how best to banish them from society. If we were to go lock them all up and throw away the key, where do we draw the line for pedophile, and non pedophile? And is society willing to pay for the extreme costs to do that?

How do we find them? Is it strictly from behavior? or can we do MRI brain scans to find them? If we do develop that technology, shall we just abort them before they are born? Shall we try to remove them from the whole genetic blue print?

This assumption that they're just broken humans that are un-fixable, creates infinite problems with how to practically deal and handle them in society...

One child gets abused, but other children do not. How do you explain to the other children who might be really attached, that their parent is going to be banished out of society forever? Is this collateral damage worth it? What about situations where the legal system gets it wrong?

I'm still more interested in talking about the bigger issue of dehumanizing people. I think that also ties into poor self image within abuse and trauma survivors. We internally disown our shadows and negative aspects of our own personality. Therefore creating gigantic blind spots, which can cause unconscious behavior when we get severely emotionally triggered, and then our inner demons come out. Then we go on a scorched earth attack, recklessly harming others and ourselves, truth be damned.

I have seen just as much psychological abuse from trauma survivors towards others, if not more, than within the general public. And it's horrifying to watch it up close, and feel the pain and hurt slung around unconsciously. All of this under the guise of protection and rescuing.

..... Again, if people want to question or challenge my facts or rationale, I'm totally up for an open discussion with extreme critical analysis to search for the raw truth. I welcome any private conversations. Public discussions can get sidetracked or too sensitive.

 

[Lost Pup]

@Valentino this is a great post with a lot of important questions. Thank you.

 

[Valentino]

I am so passionate about understanding human nature, I would love to discuss and explore all the intricate details, but it's such a loaded topic. But for some reason the most taboo subjects are the most fascinating and richest to me.

Some more food for thought:

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

So let's go along with the goal of defeating pedophiles or any sort of abusive predator types. Let's label them as the 'enemy'.

How to develop a strategy that is empowering?

Know your enemy. Understand how they think. Get in their heads. Realize their addictions, weaknesses, strengths, tendencies, etc.

Then you can lead them into traps, or self imposed destruction. Why fight fire with fire, when you can let them burn themselves up with their own fire?

Or if you don't want see them as enemies, you can lead some of them towards becoming more productive members of society. We could look for ways to help them feed their addictions that aren't abusive to other people.

The most important ingredient is to 'know your enemy'.

I would argue that if we dehumanize abusive predator types, if we blanket paint them as monsters or demons. That actually makes us blind to their motivations, strengths, weaknesses, needs, wants, hurts, pain. With that blindness, we're actually weakening our position to protect ourselves, or to protect others. Because we are fighting ghosts in a sense. Also the smart predators will learn how normal society works, and use that to take advantage of us. That's how they can be so effective as 'wolves in sheep's clothing'.

If we humanize them, we will naturally try to understand them as they are. Instead of expecting them as a stereotypical predator. The smart ones will always learn how to avoid detection by creating an image of some sort of trusted member of society.

Education and understanding are vital keys to help us learn how to better interact with these types of people. Banishment of them from society is just too impractical and imprecise at the moment.

Plus some of them are highly skilled and can still contribute to society.

Isn't what we really want is better overall group safety and better control for extreme abusive behavior? That seems like a more reasonable and achievable goal.

 

[Abstract]

I am never going to be understood on here or on this topic so am no longer going to try. I don't mean that in a grumpy way and rather just in an accepting way.