Grooming? Or...what...?

[barefoot]

Not sure where to post this or even why I'm posting, really.

My understanding of grooming is when an adult deliberately and dishonestly misleads a child/young person into trusting them/befriending them in order for the adult to engage in sexual abuse/exploitation of the young person. So, I can see how, for example, an adult posing as a child online to gain a child's trust and build relationship so that they can ultimately have sexual contact/share sexual material etc would be considered grooming. And I know it wouldn't have to be that the adult was pretending to be a young person.

I think my question is, does grooming have to actually lead to sexual contact/abuse?

So, say, if someone in a position of authority were to set out to befriend a child/young person, encourage them to trust them, make them feel they were singled out as special (because other young people weren't permitted this special friendship)...but, ultimately, nothing overtly sexual ever occurs between them...could that still be considered grooming behaviour? Or would that "just" be called...I don't know...inappropriate...a breach of trust/professional boundaries...?

Now I'm writing this, I'm thinking that for something to be called grooming, there would have had to be sexual contact/abuse (including things like looking at sexually explicit material/showing things on web cams etc not solely actual physical sexual contact/abuse)

So maybe what I'm really getting at is what, if anything, do you call the other stuff that doesn't end up resulting in actual sexual abuse. But something about it was still off/inappropriate/"wrong" to some degree bearing in mind the adult's role/job? But they didn't really do anything bad.
My head is currently whirring with some stuff...something I never really thought anything of but now I am questioning it. Not trying to be vague and cryptic....just trying to contain things in my head!

 

[Friday]

could that still be considered grooming behaviour? Or would that "just" be called...I don't know...inappropriate...a breach of trust/professional boundaries...?

Grooming requires the sexual &/or abuse component to be grooming. That's why it's grooming. Otherwise it's known as friendship, mentorship, role model, etc. What makes getting a child to trust you, befriend you, etc. wrong is the betrayal of that trust. Some people? Are just nice.

 

[digger]

, say, if someone in a position of authority were to set out to befriend a child/young person, encourage them to trust them, make them feel they were singled out as special (because other young people weren't permitted this special friendship)...but, ultimately, nothing overtly sexual ever occurs between them...could that still be considered grooming behaviour?

It could be yes, I think it would depend on the intent, or motive behind the befriending. It may be, for example, that the adult realised at some point along the way that the child would not actually make a 'good candidate' (for want of better words) for abuse, or that something got in the way of it moving onto that.

 

[Suzetig]

If you're thinking in legal terms there only needs to be intent to have some form of sexual contact, the contact doesn't necessarily need to take place. So building a relationship with a child/young person which either has sexual content, contact or intent (e.g. The intention was to have sexual contact but it didn't happen) all counts as grooming.

Generally speaking though, if something feels off, it's off - I don't necessarily need to define what the "offness" is.

 

[barefoot]

Otherwise it's known as friendship

Some people? Are just nice.

Yes...I know an adult and a young person can be friends and that some people are just nice... I'm not suggesting that every adult/child friendship is wrong and abusive.

I'm really thinking about an adult who has a role/job where professional boundaries are important.

 

[Teasel]

I think there's also something about the quality and reciprocity of the "relationship" that's important.
If an adult friend of the family formed a good relationship with a child with no ulterior motives and with both parties can be themselves and respect the other I would call that a friendship

If the adult steers the relationship to meet their own interests only, with no regard whatsoever for tfe child's wishes or discomfort etc then I think that could feel like grooming

 

[barefoot]

Ok...so...I'm going to stop beating around the bush.

So...a teacher, for example. A teacher who befriends a teenage pupil - seeks them out in school, calls them into their office regularly and talks about their personal life/relationship with their wife etc. Makes them feel special, singled out and more important than other kids because the other kids don't get invited into the office to eat cake and get told details about the teacher's private life. Is flirty with them. Talks to them in front of younger kids in a way that makes the younger kids think that the teacher and older pupil are having some kind of affair or something.

I know these things aren't terribly "wrong" things.

At the same time, I used to be a teacher and I would never have behaved this way with any pupil. And yet...when I was a teenager, a teacher (a very senior one) behaved that way with me. And I've never thought anything of it. Until now, when I'm questioning it a bit. Because I made a casual comment about it to someone else (who is a senior teacher) a couple of weeks ago and they looked horrified and totally astounded by how much I was "normalising" it.

And I think I'm questioning it in a broader sense of realising that I'm not very good at knowing when something is ok/appropriate and when it's not ok/inappropriate. When I was a teacher, I was very clear about professional boundaries, so I'm not talking about me not knowing how to behave appropriately and not knowing what was ok/not ok in terms of my behaviour and relationship with teenage pupils. I mean when it comes to people being inappropriate with me - when I was younger but also, I think to some extent, even now.

I didn't have a sexual relationship with the teacher. There wasn't anything sexual about our relationship. He was sort of flirty but never overtly sexual. The only physical contact that ever took place was that he once kissed me on the mouth (a very brief peck goodnight, nothing more sexual) when he was (briefly!) in my bedroom on a school trip. And at that point, he also sort of stroked my side and commented on how nice my PJs felt. And then he left.
So...nothing awful. I didn't fancy him. I don't think he fancied me - I certainly never thought that at the time. I liked him. I thought he liked me. In that, I liked talking to him and thought he was interesting and I think I thought he had the same thoughts about me. But now I'm wondering if I was a bit of a naive idiot?!

Maybe the title of this thread is wrong. The friend who looked alarmed mentioned grooming. I don't think grooming is really the issue. Actually, I think, honestly, the issue is simply, was I a naive idiot.

 

[barefoot]

Generally speaking though, if something feels off, it's off - I don't necessarily need to define what the "offness" is.

Yeah...I see what you mean...maybe there's not really any point in me trying to pin down what it could be called...think I'm looking for language to sometimes help to clarify/make some sense of it and maybe that's just not useful or relevant.

If the adult steers the relationship to meet their own interests only,

Hmm, this has made me think. So...my teacher wasn't getting their own sexual interests/needs met as we weren't doing anything sexual. But perhaps our relationship did meet his needs somehow...maybe fed his ego, a bit...because I listened, paid him attention, was interested in him (conversationally, not in other ways!) So perhaps he put his needs above what was professionally appropriate...why was a professional boundary breach, of sorts, but not anything that had an serious kind of consequences for either of us.

 

[mamachick]

Grooming does not require sexual contact or abuse. A person could be groomed for another purpose than sexual contact and the victim generally will feel exploited if and when it is discovered.

A therapist groomed many clients as allies as he had a history of having sexual contact with just a few. He was likely a sociopath and very charming. He had the ability to make many clients feel very special and crossed boundaries repeatedly that were non sexual. One client lost insurance but he continued to see her in his private practice without payment, just stating how important she was to him. When she was sick and had no money, he gave her a $100 bill to go to urgent care. She and her husband were attending the same out of town event and he asked her where to stay-she offered to make reservations for him and he gave her his credit card information. He asked this client to help his girlfriend with something as well.(more) Many boundaries are crossed here but nothing legal....would make for vague ethical complaint. He did this with about 15 female clients at one time. He also had the occasional client that he DID have sex with. Several filed licensing complaints. Some of the groomed 15 female clients would go to bat for him when complaints were filed, even harassing the complainant.

A 27 yr old high school band teacher groomed students. There were only rumors that he engaged in sex with one student who graduated.
K was 16 and a junior when he began grooming her. Since she was started a new instrument late, he gave extra attention. K noticed that he sexualized the female band students. He would tell them to wear short skirts to competition. He would take photos of them. He made subtle touches that were not invited or necessary, not made with the boys. He would text K little messages asking how her day is and such. He would catch her during the change of class and show her memo's on his computer that were only intended for faculty. He would make fun of other staffs notes with her. He would ask her to do extra projects, or rather to assist him with duties, then having an excuse to have her called to his office and chat. (more) He was treating her like a peer...not a student...She was being groomed. K was uncomfortable and reported the behavior. School staff found his behavior inappropriate and disciplined him. K dropped out of band. Other girls were mad at K. They too had been groomed. Two years later, the sheriff dept contacted K and asked her to come in-they wanted a detailed description of her complaint as the school was unwilling to share. The sheriff dept was contacted by another parent whose daughter had been groomed and who this teacher wrote in (his own handwriting) romantic letters to this young girl. He continued after being told to stop. The teacher was fired and stalking
charges filed. There was no sex.

Grooming can be subtle and does not need to include sexual contact.

 

[mamachick]

@barefoot-you described grooming...teachers flirting and sharing personal information is part of grooming...everything you describe.

 

[Friday]

Is flirty with them

^^^
That alone is bad enough.

Add in the rest? Kissing you & stroking you & all of it in context? :O_o: Yup. I'm with the other teacher.

I've been hugged/kissed by teachers/coaches/etc. All of it in full view of everyone, none of it even approaching the barest idea of flirting, much less sex/romance. Just good people. You don't have to maintain 1 arms distance to maintain sexual boundaries, and a rooms worth of distance isn't enough if those boundaries are already being crossed.

Hmm, this has made me think. So...my teacher wasn't getting their own sexual interests/needs met as we weren't doing anything sexual. But perhaps our relationship did meet his needs somehow...

Just because there's no actual sex involved doesn't mean that they're not getting their rocks off. Some people are voyeurs, or enjoy the chase, or the long con. Those types usually have several 'on the hook' (and usually a few in bed, that they replace as needed). Regardless of what type he is/was? He was clearly demonstrating predatory behavior, and sexualizing a relationship with a child.

Teenagers often TRY and sexualize a relationship with adults -who know how old they are- in their lives. That's really normal, nothing wrong about it... It's up to the ADULTS to draw the line. To know these are just kids coming into their hormones, and exploring their world, and pushing boundaries. Because that's what kids do. Virtually every 16yo on the planet has FELT like an adult, but doesn't realize until they are adults in their 20s and 30s and upward how freaking young 16 really is. And how gross any adult who would knowingly take advantage of a child Is.

That he wasn't getting sex itself doesn't mean that there's no sexual or abuse component. The moment flirting becomes part of the equation? That component is there.

 

[Suzetig]

What you describe sounds like grooming to me - kissing you goodnight, touching you, talking about their personal relationships are all behaviours that shift the relationship from professional to personal. In the uk the teacher would be considered to have breached their duty of trust and would be in trouble, and for good reason.