Publicly confronted about service dog. a disability isn't fake just because it's invisible. (vent)

[BuckarooBanzai]

Ok. Now try to relate to shaking, can't walk, your service dog is alerting you (and I ALWAYS thank my SD in training for alerting me as it always has to be a good thing) so stop to do that, have to some how get him and I through the store to at least the door.

Ok, that all happens to me, too, except I am not blessed with a SD.

Your description, though, makes it sound like having the SD alert you makes you feel worse? Am I reading you correctly? Or, perhaps things are more problematic because she is still in training?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Your description, though, makes it sound like having the SD alert you makes you feel worse? Am I reading you correctly? Or, perhaps things are more problematic because she is still in training?

No, neither. The alerting is good but it is the person invading my space and not going away that is then making it worse for me. My dog alerting to me is good. But a SD is something you must manage along with the rude ass people that won't leave you alone and go away when asked nicely several times.

I am trying to paint a picture for you but apparently my words are failing to do so.

You are saying to just ignore them. It is NO WAY that simple!

 

[BuckarooBanzai]

I was thinking about all of this while waiting for my bus this evening.

Smoking is illegal at bus stops in my locale. This topic is important to me because I have asthma.

Tonight, a woman walked to the stop, sat in the enclosure, and lit up a cigarette. Now, once upon a time, I would have reminded this woman that smoking is not permitted at a stop, and then asked her to put out her cigarette. When I used to do that, however, the smoker's reaction would be rude, crude and triggering.

Anyhow, I have learned that such people are boundary-less and highly unlikely to positively respond to even a polite request. So now, rather than confront these people and get triggered, I just move outside the enclosure to a safe place.

Am I in the right to ask and expect her to stop smoking? Yes. If I ask, am I going to get what I want? No. What WILL I get? Triggered!!

SO, tonight, my mouth flapped open and then I shut it again. And then I moved outside the enclosure. Reason being, it wasn't worth asking her to stop smoking; asking, only to be rudely refused and cursed at, would have upset me much more than I already was.

I labeled her, in my heart, a boundary-less (hence dangerous) person, and walked away from her. I saved myself from an asthma attack, and saved myself from being further triggered.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier in this thread: Can we put our heads together and think of a way to deal with rude boundary-less people that won't result in all the long-term anger noted in this thread? 'Cause, let's face it, this isn't good for us.

 

[BuckarooBanzai]

You are saying to just ignore them. It is NO WAY that simple!

I realize it's not simple, believe me.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I labeled her, in my heart, a boundary-less (hence dangerous) person, and walked away from her. I saved myself from an asthma attack, and saved myself from being further triggered.

It's actually the other way around for us but I'll stop as I have completely taken over this thread.

Sorry @Justmehere. Just passionate I guess.

 

[Justmehere]

Tonight, a woman walked to the stop, sat in the enclosure, and lit up a cigarette. Now, once upon a time, I would have reminded this woman that smoking is not permitted at a stop, and then asked her to put out her cigarette. When I used to do that, however, the smoker's reaction would be rude, crude and triggering.

Anyhow, I have learned that such people are boundary-less and highly unlikely to positively respond to even a polite request. So now, rather than confront these people and get triggered, I just move outside the enclosure to a safe place.

Am I in the right to ask and expect her to stop smoking? Yes. If I ask, am I going to get what I want? No. What WILL I get? Triggered!!

I am allergic to smoke as well, and I think this is a great example of an effective way to handle the matter. If it can be solved by stepping away, then great! Picking and choosing battles is key. Sometimes confrontation is a good thing to avoid. Sometimes there are service dog team public interactions that can be avoided in a similar manner. Sometimes.

I think there is a disconnect though between how many people see what a service dog does and what it actually does for a person, and why there is sometimes a much stronger response to boundary busting with service dogs than people expect - and why it's often something that requires action to resolve. Not just walking away.

If we use the smoking example, sometimes it's not quite like seeing someone who is smoking and not being able to be around them...

When you have a service dog and someone busts the boundaries of the dog-person team and starts petting/playing with the dog without asking... it's a little like someone who takes out our oxygen tube (a service dog doing it's trained tasks that are needed to function) and shoves a cigarette in our mouth instead (petting the dog requires our attention to the dog and the person petting our dog instead of symptoms that the dog was assisting managing) and then having a full blown asthma attack (symptoms of PTSD spiking because the dog isn't doing it's tasks anymore) as we grab the cigarette and throw it out (as we ask the person to please stop and move back a bit, if possible) and try to go back to using the inhaler (get the doc to return to doing it's trained tasks.)

The general public understands to not walk up and pull out the oxygen tube of someone with a portable oxygen tank. They understand to not walk up and just grab the cane of a blind person walking down the street and play with it like a toy. That person who was smoking may not have been thinking about asthmatics that were there, but they at least would not be likely to walk up and pull an inhaler out of your mouth and play with it like a toy when you were mid-puff.

Or argue back with you when you said "hey, no stop."

When a boundary-busting person is actively invading a boundary that interferes with many kinds of medical equipment from functioning, most people understand why someone would take action to reestablish the boundary in a hurry.

But a service dog? It happens all the time and it impacts the person relying on the dog in a similar way. Most states have laws that make it a serious criminal act to interfere with a service dog, but most people don't know or understand that.

When I can, I do walk away. But there are also times where it helps me stay calmer to actually say something and assert my boundaries. And there are times where I can't walk away. Hmmm... I might write more about that... I just remembered something that recently happened.

And @BuckarooBanzai - this post started off as a response to you, but please know most of this is about me and trying to explain what it's like and to everyone why there is such strong push back sometimes about service dog interference... I think you are handling not only the smoker well, but this discussion and service dogs well too. Thanks to all.

 

[Justmehere]

This is kind of a vent-y post and is not directed at anyone here. This is about times when I couldn't walk away. I just realized I needed to write about this a bit for any feedback. I hope you all don't mind. Feel free to skip if you don't want to read more about what people do with service dogs sometimes...

As I was walking my dog today, when someone with a very happy dog was walking down the sidewalk with a 6ft leash on the dog, all the way loose. I was on a pedestrian bridge that was about 6 feet wide when I encountered them. There was ice on the bridge, so quickly running off the bridge was not an option. I moved to the far side of the bridge, and as the person approached and the dog came within 2 feet of my dog, no sign that the other dog owner was going to pull back their dog, my dog became protective and I became anxious. Recently a dog on a leash attacked and injured my service dog, so this is still anxiety producing for me. I asked the person walking the dog, "please pull back your dog." He didn't. I said it again, more loudly, while pushed up against the rail... By then, his dog was barking and jumping within inches of mine, mine was half hiding behind me... no longer a working dog...

Or take when I'm trying to get into the theater and trying to buy tickets and suddenly my dog is pulling because someone is trying to play with her and she is moving away and into me... I can't get out of line without creating a scene. Sometimes it's easier to just say "hey, please stop."

Sometimes even that moment of distraction can mean a dog can't alert to symptoms in time for someone to take action to manage a symptom before the symptom gets out of control. Here's one example: Why You Should Never Pet A Service Dog - It's about a seizure dog, but it's not far from what can happen for a symptomatic PTSD sufferer who is relying on a dog to function.

Then there are times where saying "no, stop" is also needed to prevent even worse boundary violations.

Two weeks ago, I had a very minor medical procedure and the nurse was taking pictures of my dog while I was waiting. I've had this procedure before and the doc always let's me keep my dog with me in the room, sitting by my jacket against the wall, because doctors trigger the hell out of me, and if my dog is in the room, it's easy to stay calm, and the dog does things to alert to symptoms and help manage symptoms before and after to procedure to keep me chill.

People try to take pictures of my dog from time to time, and they usually ask first... and the nurse commented that she knew enough to leave me out of the pictures because of patient privacy, but it was so stunningly awkward to have a nurse photographing my dog, that I couldn't speak to say no. I also couldn't leave, not easily, as I was in a hospital gown and hooked up to an IV... I ignored it. In that situation, confronting a nurse would have been like walking away from a smoker for me. (oh by the way, nothing against people who smoke. I don't care.) Anyhow, it would have triggered me to say no to the nurse. So even though it was a serious issue, I ignored it... I hoped it would just pass. Sometimes it does. Not with this nurse.

The nurse then asked me to go down the hall, I didn't understand why at first. I thought she was taking me to the procedure room. But 3 beds down, she pulled back the curtain and signaled for my dog to greet another patient, which left the other patient and his wife AND me so confused, my dog had a rare moment of nervousness because she got conflicting signals from me and the nurse and she paced between me and the other patient, and her tail almost pulled out his IV, he had to grab his arm and was clearly unwell already, and I grabbed my dog and had a passive panic attack near this poor guy's bed because I felt SO invaded and I had no escape... I was on the edge of a flashback, and got out of there. I walked back down to my bed as soon as I could, grabbed all my clothes, and put on pants and a jacket other gown, and walked down to the patient advocate with my IV bag in hand. The nurse yelled at me to calm down, and that just... well, it didn't help.

I told the advocate what happened and she got visibly upset, instantly dropped what she was doing and came back to make sure everything else from there went smoothly. But I was toast in terms of managing symptoms. The doc had to use heavy meds to sedate me - to get me to lie back on a table with no underwear on to do the procedure into my hip, without my automatically pushing people away. The dog and my own coping skills were no longer enough. I had to take a cabbie home while drugged, in an unplanned way, and it was very terrifying. It was a mess...

The advocate later told me she convinced the whole hospital to re-train everyone on proper privacy and service dog edict and they notified the HIPAA and OCR folks themselves about the privacy breech and ADA violations... Even gave me a copy of their surprisingly accurate report. It turns out the patient advocate has PTSD and at times uses a service dog herself. So she was ALL over it. So that was good, because I really didn't want to have to deal with it at all.

If I had just reminded the nurse, sorry, my dog is not a therapy or pet dog, she is a working dog for me, not for you to take pictures... it probably would have gone a lot better... Not that anything but my own symptoms were my fault.

The nurse meant no harm, and she was like many members of the public, misunderstanding that the dog isn't there because it's like a big cute animal that gives me comfort just by being there. Sure, that is the case, but the dog actually actively does a variety of tasks that mediate the symptoms of a disability.

And I have had years of practice navigating these issues, but sometimes, even though my therapist says I'm the best self advocate she's met, even I get speechless and dumbfounded on how to respond.

The times that I can walk away, it's still at a cost. The dog is there to help me have access in the first place when symptoms are high. Two months ago, I actually left a store rather abruptly as to not deal with a guy following my dog and whistling at her. She doesn't respond to whistling, but I felt awful. I couldn't focus to buy the things I needed.

To the store's credit, someone saw me walk out, and asked if I was ok. I said "yeah, just can't deal with the dog whistler on isle 3." The clerk was super nice and offered to walk back in with me and tell the whistler to leave, and wanted to give me a Starbucks giftcard for my trouble... She didn't at all try to play with or pet the dog, she talked to me. About me. (Kind of an eyes up here thing sometimes - lol)

I didn't take her up on the giftcard or being walked in with her, but I did go back in and told her I was glad there was someone I could go to if I needed a break with dealing with pushy people.

Sometimes service dog owners just need a break like that, where we can just use our medical equipment/service dog, without someone actively interfering with it's function.

Oh gosh, I think I really needed to write about what happened with that nurse... I'm so sorry to vent again. I'm not angry and this post isn't aimed at anyone on the forum. I think I just really needed to spell out what happened and how it really affected me. @lostforgottensoul, no apology needed for posting what you have either.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Your description, though, makes it sound like having the SD alert you makes you feel worse? Am I reading you correctly? Or, perhaps things are more problematic because she is still in training?

I wanted to respond to this again as @Justmehere's last post drives this point home.

Yes, my dog is still in training and yes, he is only 2 and a half ish months into training (though doing awesome) but no, it has zero to do with him being in training. I was giving you a generalized "example" or painting a picture. Service dogs are very well trained, yes, but they are NOT robots. They have bad days and even awful days. They loose focus and have issue regaining it. People like to make kissy noises to my dog which he then becomes reactive at (excited). They are still dogs. We (collective we as SD teams) try our best to handle them in a fashion that is respectful of all members of society. Many of the commands they are taught (such as "tuck") is to just that. Get the dog out of any person's way, more or less depending. We (collective) try to be respectful of others.

But when I tell someone "he is a service dog (in training, being collective again) he needs to focus only on me" that is my nice way to say "please go away and leave us alone". So your example @BuckarooBanzai is the smoker following you, blowing smoke in your face, won't leave you alone no matter how much you tell them you have asthma.

We, as a society, needs to learn to respect service dogs and working dogs of all kinds, and admire from a distance (though not making eye contact).

Would anyone go up and pet a police K9 while he is hunting down a bad man? Or a search and rescue dog while they are searching and rescuing? Why not? Because it interfers with their job. It is the EXACT same thing for service dogs. They ARE working dogs. They are a medical device. People laugh at the oxygen tank, cane, and wheelchair examples but it is the EXACT same thing.

And I am sorry all of that happened @Justmehere! I do understand working through the dog's anxiety. My SD in training became very reactive (excited) and isolated which made him more reactive, and bad anxiety. We have worked through a lot of that (though not all) so I get it and I am sorry all of that happened! :hug:

ETA: But I will say, my dog is just getting into public access so what I have experienced is not even the tip of the iceberg of what SD teams have to go through every single day.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

I have a dumb question, is it possible to put letters on the coat that tell others to leave you guys alone as the dog is working?

 

[joeylittle]

Yes, my dog is still in training and yes, he is only 2 and a half ish months into training (though doing awesome) but no, it has zero to do with him being in training.

It does a little though, doesn't it? You are already in a heightened awareness state because he's experiencing a lot of new stuff. I truly don't mean this as criticism - I think it's OK to allow just navigating with him to be the single reason for why you are there, and not try and add in the shopping until he's done the store at least a few times.

Just a thought, take it or leave it.

I think making that call - when to put down a hard boundary, when to let things slide, and when to walk away - that's definitely a big part of my learning process. My natural instinct is always to be accommodating. Which means, in working on that sometimes I just go way to hard to the other end of the spectrum. Modulating it is tough.

@Justmehere - that nurse! - but what I wanted to mention is that you still always get to change your mind. So if the first instinct is to just get along in the moment, and say 'yeah, sure, OK' to the picture - if your gut tells you right after, that you didn't like that choice? it's OK to make a new choice.

But when I tell someone "he is a service dog (in training, being collective again) he needs to focus only on me" that is my nice way to say "please go away and leave us alone".

Maybe try not speaking in code? "Leave us alone, thank you" - doesn't have to have an angry tone about it, but it's going to end the interaction.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

It does a little though

No, not really. I have watched many teams struggle with this and posted it on youtube. One in particular has a seziure alert dog (hense all my talk about seziure alert) that has the most I have ever seen with one team. And she educates and is very sweet It's heart breaking.

It comes up a ton on videos of service dogs being denied access (cell phone recording generally) and that by itself is heartbreaking which is also due to ignorance.

I have had my own experiences as well and just the amount I personally experienced and we are just barely in public access, I know a SD team experiences MUCH more on a dialy basis.

So, my opinion and I suppose passion about it all is formed several ways.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Maybe try not speaking in code? "Leave us alone, thank you" - doesn't have to have an angry tone about it, but it's going to end the interaction.

That's rather rude to say to someone, in my opinion. And I don't personally think saying "he is a service dog and needs to fully focus on me but thank you" is code.