Sufferer I know the cause but what helps most are ways to cope.

[Michael Lastname]

People are questioning not because they want to dig, but rather there is an exclusion saying that...

Thanks for pointing that out Eve.

Apologies to those I have wronged, I did not know I was breaking any kind of etiquette.

What do you mean by exclusion? I know that this is a hot button topic for many. And I do not want to start any arguments. But organophosphates cause neurological damage to the pathway that controls traumatic memory. Not a theory, a reality. As does Nicotine.

There are plenty of chemicals/drugs that will negatively effect PTSD and a range of other mental health conditions as well. So we are pretending they don't for some reason? Are you saying someone has decided they understand PTSD to the point where they can tell you the biochemical processes involved are never influenced by environmental toxins or psychoactive compounds?

Because that is a load. What about all those soldiers that got poisoned (by organophosphates) and came home with record levels of PTSD?

To my knowledge noone has demonstrated the mechanism behind PTSD to the point they can predict who will get it, when and why.

There are people who don't believe in mental health, they just think you should buck up and get over it. They are not stupid, just misled by a confusing and often contradictory landscape. I have spoken with quite a few medical professionals with this view. There are no shortage of unhelpful viewpoints here. I make no concession if you hold one.

I am not interested in what is PC or in vogue. If you suffer from PTSD, stay away from organophosphates and nicotine, they will sensitize you. Not a theory, reality.

My argument is science based. if you want me to explain it further I can. If I have made a factual error, please point it out. I want answers just like everyone here. I don't want to cause an argument because I know the people here come for support not drama. But I also know the answers are yet to be uncovered and if we can't let go of some unhelpful ideas we are never going to get there.

Exclude me if you must. I will keep searching until I beat this thing, even if I have to do it all by myself.

 

[mumstheword]

Thank you for sharing that information. I knew a little about the negatives of glysophates and the like and I suspected that nicotine added to nerve stress, having my own experiences that contribute to being open to what you are saying about it.

My partner just gave up tobacco and is much calmer and less irritated, I've noticed.

 

[anthony]

But reconstructing traumatic events needs to be done in a safe space with trusted and experienced people.

Ok. Yet here you are trying to tell people that Organophosphates and Nicotine activate the other Actylecholine pathway. As though fact. That they should remove themselves from these chemicals, as though fact. Yet you should discuss your trauma in a safe place only?

A little, pot this is kettle, got a stone in a glass house, moment. Don't you think?

 

[joeylittle]

Hi @Michael Lastname - welcome.

If you haven't, you should check out our community constitution. It's worth the reading - will give you an understanding of the site's purpose, values, and personality.

I just had some questions...

But organophosphates cause neurological damage to the pathway that controls traumatic memory. Not a theory, a reality. As does Nicotine.

these two very toxic but completely unregulated poisons are cumulative, so even a very low concentration will build up over time and start to do some damage.

Can you point me towards the studies you are referencing, in re: the connection between organophosphates/nicotine, ACh, and traumatic memory?
I'm familiar with this concept:

Organophosphates can be lethal to humans (and insects) because they inhibit AChE, causing ACh to accumulate at cholinergic synapses. This build-up of ACh depolarizes the postsynaptic cell and renders it refractory to subsequent ACh release, causing, among other effects, neuromuscular paralysis.

(Source: Neuroscience, 2nd Ed.)
But it seems a leap to me, to go from the effects of something like sarin (nerve) gas, to traumatic memory and fight or flight. In essence, are you proposing that the fight or flight reflex is the result of some kind of oversaturation of ACh?

If that were so, it would then seem to follow that the buildup and subsequent 'blocking' of ACh should be present in the PTSD population, and I'm assuming you must have some study for that. If not, then wouldn't you say this is more of a hypothesis than a proven fact? It's an interesting hypothesis, don't get me wrong - that's why I'm asking. I'd love to see the studies that link this stuff together specifically.

So kinda I am saying it is a cause, but mostly I am saying these chemicals lower your threshold and diminish your resilience.

It makes sense to me that you could extrapolate this - that anything interfering with the function of the central nervous system could likely affect one's PTSD, and then conversely, if one already has a compromised CNS, developing PTSD could be more likely. But I'd say those are extrapolations, and 'could' - not 'would'. As in, correlation does not equal causation...would you agree? Disagree?

I am doing some research into TMS and think that as it stands it isn't very effective, but when better coils and a better mapping / targeting system, it really could bring a lot of relief to a lot of people for low low price.

I've had three series of TMS, for depression, on two different types of machines. I can say that, for me, it addresses a cluster of depression symptoms pretty well. It doesn't seem to do what it's supposed to (designed to) do, which is move my depression into remission. But for some people, it does. I'm also looking forward to continuing development on the whole treatment concept of it, because it's vastly preferable to ECT.

I know that it's being tested on PTSD, but it's not surprising to me that it's not proving itself well in that arena. Addressing depression, and maybe even anxiety, is only addressing part of the overall symptom profile of PTSD. And without a more concrete understanding of PTSD itself, I doubt they can get much farther. But I absolutely recommend it for relief from depression, and co-morbid condition.

It is a mistake to ask about trauma specifics in an open thread.

Just wanted to say - this is really something that many members do, here. You're not under any pressure to do so - but, if you stick around, you'll find varying levels of trauma disclosure, in accordance with each member's comfort level. It tends to be an early question, because we often understand each other's symptoms sets more specifically through identifying with aspects of their trauma.

My argument is science based. if you want me to explain it further I can. If I have made a factual error, please point it out.

Again - not saying you've made an error. I'm just drawing a line between 'really interesting hypothesis bringing together multiple points of data' and 'proven fact', and curious to know how much of what you are saying is on which side of that line.

 

[EveHarrington]

Thanks for pointing that out Eve.

Apologies to those I have wronged, I did not know I was bre...

No, we don’t understand the mechanics behind PTSD. How the diagnostic criteria stands now is that you must have a specific kind of trauma to have PTSD, with the exclusion that it cannot be due to drug use. There are other mental illnesses that are diagnosed if the damage is due to drug use.

People here tend to stick to the book. Who knows, in the future the diagnostic criteria may change. I’m not denying that you are suffering or anything like that. I’m just trying to explain why people are curious about how you got ptsd from chemical exposure, and how that is a Criterion A trauma.

The diagnostic criteria aren’t perfect, we all know that. I hope you don’t take offense to anyone’s questions.

 

[Michael Lastname]

Ok. Yet here you are trying to tell people that Organophosphates and Nicotine activate the other Actylechol...

Anthony,

They are facts. I haven't seen anyone else applying them to PTSD (which is why i thought to bring it up), but the damage is real and the effects are real.

Actual facts. There is a lot of information on Acetylecholine around you can see for your self.

Reconstructing traumatic events is intensely personal and dangerous. But needed to reintegrate broken memories. Staying away from harmful chemicals is not really pots and kettles, it is common sense.

Many situations increase your stress level and bring you closer to losing control. Exposure to these chemical increase your stress levels and bring you closer to losing control. Identifying situations that increase your stress levels is a key early step. I found some and shared it.

As for the constitution, I will give it a read.

I know new information is hard to process sometimes, I am not here to cause trouble, but science is science and facts are facts even when inconvenient to your world view.

Are you shooting the messenger?

 

[joeylittle]

I know new information is hard to process sometimes, I am not here to cause trouble, but science is science and facts are facts even when inconvenient to your world view.

Facts are facts. Hypotheses are not certainties.

I asked you for some information - instead of getting provocative with the founder, why not respond to the admin?

 

[anthony]

Are you shooting the messenger?

Not yet. I want to see the data that you claim is factual linking all this to trauma, traumatic memory and the SNS.

I'm not doubting the chemicals are poisonous. That is fact. But you're linking them to trauma, traumatic memory and the SNS specifically.

I've been doing this a long time, and right now, your content is very subjective and spammy. Please cite your studies that link this to trauma as you are claiming.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

It is a mistake to ask about trauma specifics in an open thread.

How so? I have obtained a ton of help by peer to peer support. Made my biggest steps foward right here on this site in threads.

But reconstructing traumatic events needs to be done in a safe space with trusted and experienced people.

What about those that do not have access to therapy? There are many on the site just as such. So those people shouldn't at least benfit from some peer to peer support?

Try to stay away from pesticide, herbicide and cigarette smoke if you can

Oh lord! Nicotine increases heart rate which does make exististing anixiety worse. It is a stimulate. We already know that. Nothing new there. But it and the others does not cause PTSD. Trauma causes PTSD. You were traumatized. That may have caused PTSD. The rest may make it worse, I don't know but I know it certianly doesn't cause it.