Service dog handler lobby

[lostforgottensoul]

how did you train for the HR increase?

Anytime I had any anxiety at all, any amount, in his presence I would ask for an alert. It eventually, over about maybe 6 months, became automatic. He's alerting to more then just increased heart rate but in bed, to see if he needs to alert me he smells my ear. That's when I figured out he was sensing my heart rate. That part he did on his own. I only asked for an alert (taught him what an alert is first of course, which are different things depending) when I had anxiety of any amount in his presence. Sort of like block and cover becomes automatic after a long while of doing the task. Same thing.

 

[joeylittle]

before I disocciate and move places without memory of it my heart rate increases, my breathing becomes irregular, I begin to shake, usually will pick at my skin and scratch at my skin without realizing it, have high anxiety, and usually a panic attack which then leads to the dissocciation (I found this out from others around me when it was happening

> shrugs ^^^

It wouldn’t be unreasonable for you to try and manage some aspects of this stuff on your own, esp. if you wanted to have sex w/o Chopper alerting you. Training yourself to recognize irregular breathing, skin picking, heart rate increase - it can be done. I wouldn’t compare it to seizure alert, where there is no bio-mechanical option for the individual with epilepsy - they can avoid certain kinds of stimuli, but there is no option to re-direct the seizure phenomena itself. With what you are describing, it’s reasonable to try developing your own interventions. It might even be that training Chopper has given you some more skills/awareness around some of these anxiety/dissociation symptoms.

Just sharing thoughts. I didn’t think it would be possible to learn to manage my panic and dissociation, but it really just took a lot of practice, and eventually, it was possible. Being able to do some of that on your own would help w/your autonomy in the wanting to have time w/a partner without having to resolve what to do w/Chopper.

That’s all. I’ll shut up now, since I’ve got no service dog experience to contribute.

 

[Freida]

Oh it's not just service dogs. EVERY dog I've ever had has at some point interrupted me and the hubby trying to figure out what we were doing. Nothing like a cold nose on the fancy parts to quickly change the mood! I think they just get confused about what they are hearing and smelling (not to get to graphic). We had one we had to lock out of the bedroom, and then she would just whine at us. Eventually they all would get used to it and settle down - they just needed to know we weren't killing each other.

 

[Sideways]

Oh it's not just service dogs. EVERY dog I've ever had has at some point interrupted me and the hubby trying to figure out what we were doing.

Yeah, this is more the issue to me. Dogs are going to react in different ways, but if they decide that you are being inappropriately dominated, or that you are distressed? Dogs will stick their nose in to check out if you’re okay, irrespective of whether they have specific training for things like panting or increased BP. Which is why I think a lot of dog owners keep the dog outside the room!

If you’re at the point where you’re going to get intimate with a partner, they’re going to already know that you have Chopper, and probably that he’s your Assistance Dog. So, it might be simpler to simply let your partner know, “Get me my dog if anything goes wrong”. That avoids you putting Chopper in the situation where he’s receiving markers that he’s trained to respond to, and being told “No, no, this heavy breathing is ok”, particularly if sex is going to become a regular thing. That could get pretty confusing for Chopper...

ETA. I kept my dog with me mostly when I was dating, but he’s trained to indicate when my distress levels are increasing. And sex was distressing for me. I couldn’t have my dog with me for that. It would have been unfair on him to be telling him to just chill out, when exactly the type of issue he’s trained for is going on.

Think of it perhaps like: a seizure alert dog being routinely told by the handler to ignore seizures. If you want Chopper to react when you’re having flashbacks, and to interupt you when that happens? The decision seems to be more about (a) is sex going to cause me to have flashbacks etc; and (b) is that something I’m prepared to handle.

Asking your partner to let Chopper hang out at the end of the bed “just in case I have a meltdown or something, but just go ahead and ignore him otherwise”....The problem with that scenario is not whether Chopper should be in the room, yeah!?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

@joeylittle, if I could manage these things on my own then I wouldn't have Chopper alerting to it. There would be no reason to go through all of that training if I could manage to do it on my own.

ETA: Or keep him refreshed on the skill which is also work. A dog will loose a skill if not used and/or refreshed on often. If I could manage it on my own he wouldn't be well refreshed on the skill and use it often. He wouldn't use it at all and I would then allow him to loose that skill. It is one of the biggest things I need him to do and one of the biggest reasons for a service dog.

Asking your partner to let Chopper hang out at the end of the bed “just in case I have a meltdown or something, but just go ahead and ignore him otherwise”

Ugh, he wasn't at the end of the bed at all! He was across the room on the floor and then in the livingroom on his bed with the door open. Never was he laying at the end of the bed! Never did I say "I want him to alert back to back". BUT, having him have the ability to get to me, even in the livingroom on his bed with the bedroom door opened, made me feel safer and it progressed faster and I was more at ease then when I closed him out of the room where sex pretty much halted. But never was he at the end of the bed and not once did I say I placed him that close!

So, it might be simpler to simply let your partner know, “Get me my dog if anything goes wrong”.

That's a good idea.

Eventually they all would get used to it and settle down - they just needed to know we weren't killing each other.

What I'm thinking too. Its new and he doesn't yet know that I'm not in distress and once he figures that out he may lay peacefully on his bed in the other room with the door open and not come a running. But if he doesn't the door can get closed. But Chopper is really good at figuring out when I am in distress and when I am not on his own. So I think you are right!

 

[lostforgottensoul]

My therapist heavily agrees without hesitation that I need the alerts. He said "when we spoke about whether you needed a service dog or an ESA that was the biggest issue and one of the biggest reasons we agreed that you need a service dog. To make you aware that you are about to snow ball into panic thus ending in disocciating so you can pull off into a quiet corner and use other tools to help calm the panic so that you don't end up disocciating. Moving around without being aware of what you are doing is very dangerous so if being alerted and made aware that that is starting helps to stop it and allows you to then use other tools then I'd say that's a needed thing. There are many tools in the toolbox to deal with trauma. Alerts by your service dog is just one of many". Straight from the therapist.

Though I honestly don't expect someone without a service dog or a need for a service dog to understand this. That's why I posed the question to the service dog handlers out there. It would be better to ask someone that needs seizure or other medical alerts as those are needed 24/7 without question. There are a few handlers that I follow that have medical alerts but that also have PTSD that I can ask. And a service dog forum that is supportive (rather then the normal judgemental hatred that you find most common in this community) that someone told me about on my "stop the hatred in the service dog community" rant video that I can ask on. There will be those that have both medical alert needs and PTSD alert needs on there.

My therapist said he just needs exposure to it and to be told "all ok" over and over to figure out that it's something that doesn't need alerting to. He suggested masturbation where I can make all the sexual noises I need to and heavy breathing and so forth but be able to tell him "all ok" as many times as I need to. I imagine that would take the pleasure out of it but I can mock sex if needed. He says Chopper just needs exposure to it to figure out I'm ok and don't need alerting in that situation but still need alerts in other situations. I agree with that. It's a good idea. I imagine that if I told a partner "if something happens go get my dog" that partner would be scared away. Especially if, like most, he doesn't understand PTSD. I don't want to be scaring away guys now that my entire life isn't consumed by training I imagine sex will start to become part of my life again. I will be training my next prospect in about a year due to Chopper's age but then after that I can see sex and a sexual partner being part of my life for 5 or 6 yrs. I won't be consumed by service dog training forever basiclly. For a year it's all you do every second of your day (especially if you are also working fulltime like I am and then you are consumed by it way more) but then it becomes less intense after that first year or so. So we just have a new situation to train for.

 

[Justmehere]

Professionally trained PTSD service dogs that alert to symptoms do not assist with sex between two humans.

That’s off duty time for the dog. The jacket is off, the dog is in the other room, relaxing. If that’s not happening then you need to work on training off duty time. This doesn’t have to be done by demonstrating every possible situation that could arise for which he needs to be off duty.

But it is off duty time.

Sex is a very intimate activity with another human, right there. In the room. Healthy sex requires communication and connection between two people.

I’m a little concerned that you are even considering how to have your dog assist you manage symptoms during sex but are not considering how to actually communicate with your partner about your disability. That’s rather rude towards the other person. It really cuts them out. Further, having the dog assist you while having sex could impact the experience for you both and you are not even considering how you both can manage it together. You are treating the human as less valuable and useful than a dog. I love dogs. They are great. They are not replacements for humans. If you are willing and ready for sex, then you should repack your partner enough to be willing and ready to talk to them about symptoms and how to navigate it together.

Service dogs are not replacements for working on skills and tools that the handler can use too.

It’s simply very inappropriate to seek to have a service dog perform tasks to assist you while having sex.

Train it as off duty time.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

It’s simply very inappropriate to seek to have a service dog perform tasks to assist you while having sex.

That's not what I said nor meant. Having him lay in another room with the door open, knowing he can get to me is what helps. I never said nor meant that I ever wanted him to assist or alert during sex at any point. Actually I was asking for that exact reason, I do not want him to. But having that knowledge that he can get to me is what makes me feel safe. Being closed off from him is what makes me feel unsafe. Right or wrong or it being too soon for sex, thats the reality.

That’s off duty time for the dog. The jacket is off, the dog is in the other room, relaxing. If that’s not happening then you need to work on training off duty time. This doesn’t have to be done by demonstrating every possible situation that could arise for which he needs to be off duty.

But it is off duty time.

He has off duty time but a dog that alerts to medical events, such as seizures as example, alerts whether the vest is on or not. Many service dogs work without a vest. Yes, off duty is off duty but I still need him to brace for me while off duty to help me off the couch or the toliet. He still does DPT for me, when off duty. There are tasks that I am sure you ask of your serivce dog when off duty. Off duty only means he can acts as a normal dog but there are still medical and mental events that happen that I need help with in those times. I have never seen a handler that says "well, he's off duty so I can't ask him to brace or do DPT or wake me from nightmares or any of the things I may need". Nightmare waking and doing auto DPT afterwards until I fall back to sleep is a wonderful example of an off duty task. Can't get more off duty then when he is dead asleep at night.

I asked a simple question. My dog is confusing the sounds and actions of sex with those of panic. Its really not mind boggling. Off duty or not, he has not had exposure to those sounds. Whether he is trained with a trainer or not. And the fact is I feel safer knowing that my dog is in the livingroom on his bed and the bedroom door is opened therefore my dog could get to me. I never said I wanted him to.

Ok, I'm done discussing this. I have my answer and have discussed it with my therapist.

ETA: I want to add that I work very hard to give Chopper the most normal dog off duty time I can possibly do. I work just as hard at that as I do at training. I do my best to ask the least amount of tasks I can and he has playtime and normal dog time and snoozing lazy time every single day. But he still responds to a panic attack and I am sorry if that is off putting to some but I am not going to ask him to not respond to a panic attack that just happens during his off duty time.

 

[Sideways]

but I am not going to ask him to not respond to a panic attack that just happens during his off duty time.

This seems to be the big issue. I agree with @Justmehere that probably the reasonable and respectful thing to do would be to have a brief conversation with your partner about it, because if you think there’s a real prospect of this happening? Your partner deserves to know.

The deal with dogs is, they can tell the difference if you’re out of breath because of distress or because of exercise. Same with your BP increasing. Chopper knows the difference. There’s no need to train a dog to respond every time you get out of breath, or every time your BP increases a bit. That would essentially be training the useful stuff out of your dog. It’s perhaps more useful to allow the dog to indicate when they are reacting to distress, rather than something as specific as you panting.

If your dog has been taught to react to distress, rather than specific things like you panting? They’re going to be able to use their natural ability to assess whether it’s panting they need to be concerned about, and respond accordingly. Actually, your dog has picked up that your distress has increased looooong becore you get to the point that you’re out of breath, so if they’re trained to respond to distress (rather than something like you being out of breath), they can let you know that you’re not okay much earlier in the mix, and they will also leave you be when you’re out of breath because you’re excited or exercising or...having sex!!!

The things we notice when we’re distressed? Tend to come fairly late in the show conpared with when our dog is noticing “Boss’ stress is increasing”. Teaching a dog to indicate when the dog has noticed you’re getting distressed? Allows them to indicate a lot earlier.

That’s perhaps something to keep in mind for your next pup, in terms of what you decide to train them for:)

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Look, I asked a simple question and now I have "you don't need these alerts" and "the way you trained heavy breathing alerts is wrong" and "apparently you don't have enough off duty time" now thrown at me when all I did was ask a simple question. These are things that I did not ask about.

Chopper's alerts are on point other than this. He does not alert to anything else but distress. So I got something right. There is a lot more then what I put on video. A lot more. That added with asking for an alert each and everytime I had anxiety in his presense has turned into one of the best anxiety and panic alerts than I could imagine. So I got something right. Even if I dont have the money for a trainer.

I can see how he thought I was in distress. And in part, I was. Sex isn't easy for me and likely will never be.

I don't have a partner. This was a sex buddy for the night. Nothing more and nothing less. I will never see this man again.

Now, I have thrown my everything into this training. I ensure that Chopper has the best nurtion, the best vetting, the best gromming, the best exercise, the best off duty "just dog" time, the best everything. You may not agree with how I am doing it but you do not have to.

I agree with @Freida, this is new and he just needs to understand that I am ok. I have also spoke to my therapist about it and come to a conclusion on how to proceed.

Now, that is all I am saying on the matter.

 

[joeylittle]

But he still responds to a panic attack and I am sorry if that is off putting to some but I am not going to ask him to not respond to a panic attack that just happens during his off duty time.

Honest question - do you imagine there would ever be a day when you can manage some of the anxiety-induced things on your own? I would hope for you that you did think this could be possible, but am wondering your perspective on it. ETA: we crossposted. I’m not trying to attack you, I don’t think anyone here is.

Service dogs are not replacements for working on skills and tools that the handler can use too.

I’ve read some interesting articles on the more detailed aspects of what does and does not constitute ‘task’, for psychiatric service dogs specifically. (I’m not speaking of ESAs, just the specialized task sets for dogs interacting with psych disabilities). Clinicians (in the US) seem to be a little divided on what is helpful vs necessary.

One of the examples that stood out to me was whether or not a person who couldnt remember to take their medication could consider a dog reminding them as a necessary task for a SD. The consensus seemed to be that no, it wasn’t - unless the person was diagnosed with dementia or some other severe memory problem. But there was also debate on whether it was helpful, neutral, or harmful for an individual to rely on their SD for something like that.

I’m curious what SD owner/handlers think about the helpful things vs the necessary things. I’d imagine it’s hard to differentiate sometimes - and that’s without considering that we also (sometimes) have trouble accepting what our own medical necessities are...

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Honest question - do you imagine there would ever be a day when you can manage some of the anxiety-induced things on your own? I would hope for you that you did think this could be possible, but am wondering your perspective on it.

Yes, I do. But that day is not today. I will likely need mobility support for the remainder of my life but yes, I hope that one day that I do not need a service dog for PTSD. But, again, that day isn't today.