Childhood Was this abuse?

[ChattyCathy]

Hello,

I’m curious as to whether my experience counts as abuse or just inappropriate.

When I was 3/4 y.o., my older sister and I played a game she called “husband and wife.” The most I can remember is her getting topless and placing her breasts on my bare skin. I cannot recall anything else, such as whether I was nude, etc. I do have the sense that this game started much earlier than I can remember; and that other forms of touching could’ve offered. However, nothing solid.

My sister is almost 6 years my senior. My older brother was a very delighted onlooker.

Since I have so few memories, it’s hard to say whether this affected me. Interestingly, I’ve never been comfortable around her and we really don’t speak too often. I know that at that age I was masturbating to disgusting and weird images (not involving children or animals) - paraphilias? - but I don’t know whether there’s a connection. At this same age my grandmother used to whip me until I bled without cause most of the time, so that could explain the odd sexual fantasies I had.

 

[bumbles]

I recently had to rationalize my way through a similar situation between my cousin and I when I was younger. Came to the conclusion that it was not okay, even though she was also fairly young. It gets kind of confusing when it's kids, at least in my thought process it was.

I think whether or not your sister intended for that behavior to be abusive, it certainly sounds pretty traumatic to me. And I Can definitely see why the situation with your brother would cause a whole other slew of not-good feelings about it. And your grandmother :unsure: Please god let that be a sad emoji, I don't have my glasses on. It sounds like a lot of traumatic feelings were happening at the same time as all this too, it must have been pretty uncomfortable if they were mixing together with your experiences.

I'm really sorry that happened to you. I don't know if that answers your question really, but I hope the second opinion on your experiences is at least somewhat validating.

 

[Friday]

Whipped until you bled? Definitely abuse.

Masturbating as a toddler? Completely normal.

The games you and your siblings played? Could be either, or somewhere in between.

Most children experiment with their siblings if they have them or peers if they don’t. Playing doctor, husband and wife, etc. are ways completely normal healthy children are learning about themselves and others and processing cultural norms. Just like pretending to drive a car, or cook dinner, or fly. Part imaginative, part explorational. Parents almost universally nix ANY imaginative play that’s clearly defined as “for when you’re older” and is part of how we communicate cultural standards. IE they do it differently in different families, and in different cultures.

That said there’s a hard to define, yet very clear line between normal childhood experimentation and child on child sexual abuse. Just like there’s a very hard to define, yet very clear line between normal childhood fights and child on child physical abuse.

Basically, you’d need to talk it out with someone who has a good understanding of both... but I wouldn’t be surprised with the severe level of physical abuse in your family that all of you kids were acting out your own abuses, and absuses you watched others go through, with each other. Because that’s what kids do.

 

[ChattyCathy]

Hi, all! Thanks for the swift replies!

One of the reasons I question whether this was abuse, and I forgot to mention it, is that all my childhood I thought incest was normal. I’d create families in my head and the husband and wife were always siblings. In my mind, the closer they were in relation, the stronger the love and loyalty.

Does the age difference matter? I don’t remember consenting but rather wondering what was happening and why. I simply say “we played together” because I can’t prove I didn’t consent.

(I’m not whether my previous message posted where I stated that, as a little girl, I thought incest was normal and a sign of love.)

 

[Suzetig]

That’s not unusual in kids either, my little boy constantly tells me he’s going to marry his sister when he’s older, that he loves her and wants to marry her. He also says he’ll marry me and his daddy when he’s a grown up.

Family is where children get their first sense of how relationships work and are still fitting the pieces together until a much older age than you’d think. So what it means to be loved, what sexual feelings feel like, how families fit together and how people fall in love etc all happens in the context of family - which is why any abuse in the family context is so damaging.

What happened with your grandmother was abusive and is enough to cause very confused feelings about love and loyalty and safety.

And at that age consent doesn’t come in to the equation because legally neither you nor your sister can consent to sex because you both were so far under the age of consent. Whether your games crossed a line or not no one here could say but if it did, at that age research indicates that your sister would likely have been acting out her own abuse (not necessarily sexual abuse - the physical abuse she possibly would have experienced or witnessed would be more than enough to skew her sense of what’s ok from a touching point of view).

Child development is super complex - physical abuse and neglect can manifest itself in sexualised behaviour in the same way as sexual abuse can manifest itself physically. In your shoes I’d seek support for the physical violence you know you experienced and let the sexual stuff rest for now. It’s not a case that sexual abuse trumps everything else - your known experience is enough to cause all kinds of difficulties. If there’s anything else there, it’ll come to you in time.

 

[ChattyCathy]

Thanks a bunch for your feedback! I didn’t think those thoughts were normal.
I will move away from the topic.

As for my grandmother: yes, I can explore that, but I don’t think that affected me. She was a sadistic woman and targeted everyone in my family. I don’t internalize her actions.

The issue with my sibling was more pressing, because of the incest-based fantasies that persisted for so long along with other dynamics and experiences between me and my siblings. I also have a hard time understanding why a 9/10 y.o. would want to sexually experiment with a toddler. My sister wasn’t isolated. I’ve also considered that she was acting out.

So perhaps I will continue to pursue the topic, just with a therapist.

Again, thanks to all of you that provided feedback!

Can a moderator add this to my pending comment, please?

The game was sexual in nature. I understand children explore, but the point of her game was to simulate sex. That I remember clearly. Combined with the age difference, is that normal?

I know neither child can consent. I think the word I was looking for was “mutual.” I don’t know, I’m so confused about all of this.

 

[ChattyCathy]

On mutualism:

I didn’t “explore,” and if I did, it would’ve been at her behest. I was a prop. Actually, I remember quite well that I was “made” to play. I know it seems contradictory, but I was simultaneously aware and unaware of what was going on. Too young, I think.

Oddly, as I am typing, an uncomfortable memory came to me, the second one tonight. Neither can be explained well, but I think I will back off from this topic as suggested. I’m at a point in life where childhood stuff is hitting me hard, but maybe I shouldn’t press the issue by myself.

 

[Suzetig]

It sounds like you’re not happy with what happened, that you think it was wrong so really whether folk here think it was normal or not is irrelevant. It would be worth exploring with your therapist.

 

[Deleted member 8714]

When I read The Courage to Heal ages ago it stated that age does matter when it comes to abuse though they also factored in how one felt during supposedly innocent play. My brother was less than two years older than me yet perpetrated things on me which were not within the norm of innocent childhood play. And I was older not the age when children explore sexual things innocently. Plus by the time he was doing things to me, there was a difference in our relationship in terms of who had power over the other. So lots of different factors which my therapist and I explored before determining that it was indeed abuse in my situation.

 

[Abstract]

In psychology an age gap of 5 or more years is considered to be relevant. Two similarly aged children mutually exploring is different to a 10 year old convincing a 4 year old toddler to "allow" something to be done to them. You are saying this has affected you much more that being whipped to the point of bleeding by your grandmother and I think that alone tells you that you need and deserve some professional support for this. The type of relationship with the other children involved can be relevant too for how you experienced this.

Although masturbation may be normal for some children it sounds like yours wasn't merely happening on your body feeling a certain way and exploring that (as one would expect for a 4 year old) and was rather more defined.

How much older is your brother?

 

[ChattyCathy]

It sounds like you’re not happy with what happened, that you think it was wrong so really whether fol...

Thank you for the suggestion :)

When I read The Courage to Heal ages ago it stated that age does matter when it comes t...

Hello,
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I hope things are going well.
I will look into that book. I just so badly want more memories, so I can understand why my life took a certain course from childhood onward. But I have nothing.
Anyway, thanks for feedback

In psychology an age gap of 5 or more years is considered to be relevant. Two similarly aged children m...

Hi,
My brother is 1.5 years older. Interesting what you said about the relationship with other children who were present. We have no relationship. Somewhat similar to a poster above, there was always a heavy power imbalance between us that favored him. In other words, he was a bully. Not a huge one, but enough of one to make me quit speaking to him when I moved away (even though he had long ago ceased to be an a*hole towards me). We've not spoken in years.
It occurred to me the other night that while I have several memories of other relatives - grandmother, sister, mother - from age 3/4 that were in my life, I have only one of him - he's laughing while my sister is doing whatever she's doing during this game.

Anyway, thank you :)

Hi,
My brother is 1.5 years older. Interesting what you said about the relationship with other children who were...

If this can be added to my last post, that'd be great:

I forgot to address another part of your post.
I can't bring myself to research the topic of masturbation among children - it's just too weird for me. But it sounds as if you're saying that it's something a child does because it feels nice, and no more? It's not spurred on by fantasies at that age?