People?

[scout86]

I'm not sure what to call this, or where to put it, for that matter.

At my last session, my T announced that he's retiring. Fortunately, HIS idea of "retiring" is that he's closing his office down, but intends to meet with people at his house. He's not going to deal with insurance companies anymore (they are the main reason he's "retiring", I think), but his fees are going to be reasonable enough not to be a problem. Anyway, that, by itself, isn't the "problem", it just got me to thinking about it.

It's occurred to me that, most weeks, he's the only person I actually have a conversation with. I talk to my customers, of course, but there's a difference between trying to do what it takes to keep people calm and entertained while I work on their horses and actually TALKING to them. @Friday 's recent post has me thinking a little more about that too, because, if I didn't have to talk to people for work, I probably wouldn't talk to people at all. And, chances are, I won't be shoeing horses when I'm 80, but it's possible I could live that long. (Yikes!)

I'm trying to decide a few things. First, is this actually a problem? I've gotten along without people just fine most of my life. So, maybe it's not a problem? (I should add that my T keeps mentioning that there's a difference between people you deal with in real life and people you interact with online. Is he right?) If it's not a problem, COOL!

If it's "a problem" is it something I can do actually do anything about? I tend to avoid people because I don't want to be a bother. (Growing up, I was quick to adopt the philosophy that "silence is golden but sometimes invisibility is better.) When I show up to work on someone's horses, that's not an issue. I can do something they want done. I have one friend I drop in on from time to to. She's in a wheelchair and housebound. She's glad to have company, so that's not a problem, she's sort of desperate. Beyond that? I can't think of a reason anyone would want me around, so I don't want to risk wearing out my welcome by showing up. My experiences tend to support that view, and I want to be respectful of other people's feelings. But, I also tend to avoid people so maybe my experiences aren't an accurate picture? I really don't know.

If it IS a problem, and there IS something I can do about it, what is it? Because, well, an awful lot of people don't get my sense of humor, or where I'm coming from on a lot of stuff. Even my T mentions that I "don't live under the fat part of many bell shaped curves". And I'm WAY past wanting to pretend I'm someone I'm not just to make other people comfortable.

As an example. This past summer, I finally told 3 of my cousins why I've skipped every family event I could for the last many years. (Long story, but PTSD related.) They were great! Easy to talk to, believed me and all that. They were very welcoming. And I haven't communicated with any of them since. I suppose I should have? (Again, I ask because I'm not sure.) I'm glad they were glad to see me, but I don't want to wear out my welcome.....

I'm planning to bring this up with my T, but I'm trying to form it into something a little more coherent before I do. I have a suspicion HE thinks this is a thing. Before I went to talk my my cousins, he & I talked about it. He was WAY more excited that I brought it up than I was to bring it up. (He said that, in fact. LOL)

Thoughts?

 

[Sideways]

Is it a problem?

For me? There’s a lot of cognitive junk that would make it really difficult to objectively determine whether it’s a problem.

I love lists for working through issues, and for an issue like this? I’d start with 2 lists.

First: What is my perception of what I should be aiming for. What is my concept of a ‘successful recovery’? What does that look like? What is my concept of ‘normal’? That helps me identify really clearly what my cognitive distortions are about the issue.

Second: after the first list, having acknowledged the cognitive junk I’m carrying around of what I should be aiming for, I’d make a list of my values and (this would be really hard) what has been emerging in my life that might give me clues about what I actually want? What have been the things that have slowly helped to make my life worthwhile? Does that actually include the social interactions with people - and if it does, is that deep social connections, romantic connections, or more along the ‘regular acquaintance’ type interactions?

I think a lot of people carry around the perception that we not only need close friendships in order to be happy, but the more the better. A happy person is someone who has lots of close friends.

But for a whole stack of the population, really close connections, with lots of people, simply isn’t necessary to achieve periods of happiness or a sense that our life is meaningful. What we do with our time, and what we contribute socially, is often far more likely to create a life worth living. And it’s the connections that are part of those meaningful activities that are the most satisfying - not because it involves a lot of people, or intensely close relationships, but because they are simply part of what makes our life meaningful.

 

[scout86]

Over my lifetime, I've had a couple close friends where I felt like (eventually) I could say what i wanted to say without any blowback. We talked about all kinds of things. As it happens, they're dead. I miss those conversations. (Much as I hate to admit that.) The thing is, a couple people over a lifetime... I guess it would be silly to expect it to happen again, wouldn't it? And, I really do count myself lucky to have had that.

@Sideways , I don't think I have a real good grasp of what "normal" is. (My T says it's overrated. LOL) I think I'm far enough away from it that it probably doesn't matter anyway. I totally agree, that it's hard to shift through the cognitive distortions decide whether or it's a "problem". (I'm hoping you guys can help with that!)

 

[shimmerz]

It's occurred to me that, most weeks, he's the only person I actually have a conversation with.

So I am going to ask what characteristics of his make him easy to talk to. What do you like about your talks? I can't imagine he is the only one out there that can 'stand you'. I say that with humour because I share this with you.

I tend to avoid people because I don't want to be a bother.

I have some pretty hard core trauma stuff that feeds into this. I haven't had this all my life, just since all of this PTSD stuff. I can't say I am lonely, but what I will say is that I am not getting the best out of life by isolating myself -- socially isolating myself.

I ended up picking up a bunch of people that I could relate to once I came back from NS. It helped me a ton. It gave me others to focus on; helped me get outside of my head; and allows me to work on connecting with others again. I love but am challenged by making better choices when it comes to deciding who I am going to start hanging out with again. I was very indiscriminate back in the day and it didn't serve me well.

Just wondering.... are you sure you aren't hanging out with anyone because you will be a bother (cognitive distortion but I am pretty sure you knew that) or is there some fear there as well?

 

[Abstract]

Personally I am in the forget so called normal and why would you even want that camp. You is a much better aim in my experience. It really doesn't matter what suits others or what others expect. It only matters what is good for unique individual you. All that Scout ness is all that counts.
In addition to that tend not to just look at the ideal for me and rather try to add something in the direction of that ideal if I realise its a grasp for whatever reason. Sometimes a grasp in reality. Sometimes a grasp in imagination and sometimes a mix of both. An example? Some sort of exuberant social agenda may supposedly be what would float my boat but a little slight "safe" human interaction instead will do nicely at present, thank you. Then later, we will see.

I have to say, from a guess, it sounds like it is a thing for you. Not because of what suits others or any shoulds but rather because of your reasoning behind your choices as well as your past preferences. Even though I know too well online is not in person you also show on here that you care about people, care about interacting with them, have an interest in them. It makes me so sad to see you undervaluing your value. Making decisions for people about that value and not even giving them the chance to make those choices themselves. You do very evidently have social skills so that is that box ticked too.

If the anonymous function was still here I would say more but suffice it to say I deal with people in my work too. I realised a long time ago that it served a purpose in that it provides interaction within the safety of distance. Its a double edged thing possibly. It provides it and has maybe helped stop from shutting out human kind entirely at times. And it possibly is a safer bet, allowing me to keep my distance in the rest of my life. Enabling my lack of willingness to interact with people. For me anyway.

As for being a bit quirky or having a different sense of humour. I dont believe it matters. I have also never seen anything from you that would make me think it would be hard for people to relate to you. I wont point out all the cognitive distortions as am sure part of your brain can see them every well already. Validating for you that they are there for a reason. You can't see your value and are far from alone in that on here.

So just my recap: sometimes a few little steps is all we need to do at first without putting big expectations or pressure on ourselves
Sometimes we can let people make up their own minds and just let things develop and see what happens.
It may also be worth just letting those past friendships sit in your mind and maybe in therapy so you can see what you can get from that.

There is no way of course I could know what is right for you. These points just came to mind. And aspects of this are a little bit in my mind too in recent years. Can't help but think it would be a shame to keep all the scoutness in therapy and with the horses and no further.

Ps. thank goodness T is still going to be available.

 

[EveHarrington]

I think maybe you’re underestimating the value of the connections you do have...?

I’m not saying there is anything wrong with your current level of social connection. You do you, and you determine exactly how much social connection you need.

My only concern is that when your current work, therapy, etc connections end, how will you fill that void?

For quite a few years I was ok with just knowing family, work connections (which are limited in my field), and chatting up random strangers in public. Now I have a few close friends, but even so, those relationships wax and wane with my functioning level and life demands.

As for wearing out your welcome, I use this rule.... Contact someone 2, maybe 3 times at most if you’re getting in touch with them. If you get no response by that point, just back off and leave things be. This is what I call the point where you know where you stand with someone. If they care to keep in touch with you, they’ll make the effort to reach out. If you’re still interested in keeping touch with them, wait awhile and reach out again. If the pattern repeats, move on. Friendships are a two way street with effort required on both sides.

It sounds like you may need (?) friendships that are more laid back, and there are people out there who want the same.

 

[ILoveLife]

Hi @scout86 :)

I think the definition of what's normal in socialization varies a lot from person to person, like any other "thing" really.
Socialization, as opposed to isolation, is important, mostly for our well being, peace of mind and positive feeling, than it is as needed rule, more like a biological necessity to be A Part of something, that something being humanity and the ability to feel human and connected.

I've accomulated a lot of trauma that I attributed to being connected to the kind of socialization I've took part in in the past.
My current therapy homework is to find ways to connect. I have some ideas on how to make that happen, but it's difficult for me to step out of my comfort zone where no one can hurt me because there's no one around.

Hoping we both get what we need out of this issue :)
Stay well

 

[Ronin]

Skipping normal and all that...

Does talking (not talking) to people make you happier, and how much of it would still keep you happy or balanced? Is there something in talking to people and being around them that can give you a lot? Are there things you learn and that are helpful and useful to you while you are (cough) a bother (this needs a: Just quoting, I really do not share the opinion, sign)?

Things like that, what and how much can people give you, vs what it takes out to be around them.

 

[Abstract]

Oh so totally agree with the idea that for the wrong type of "socialisation" with unhealthy people was way way way worse for me than none. Found needed to draw back, get self aware and do things little by little and in a self aware way.

 

[scout86]

Thanks! I've spent the past 24 hours thinking about this, you've given me some interesting ideas.

There’s a lot of cognitive junk that would make it really difficult to objectively determine whether it’s a problem.

For me too, I'm pretty sure.

So I am going to ask what characteristics of his make him easy to talk to. What do you like about your talks? I can't imagine he is the only one out there that can 'stand you'. I say that with humour because I share this with you.

I suppose the main thing is........hard to put into words, actually. And, I'm pretty aware that he gets PAID to talk to me. (Put up with me?) On the other hand, if he wanted to be rid of me, right now is a time when he clearly had that option. He could have just said he's retiring & not added that he's going to keep seeing people at his house. Anyway, thinking about this, I came at it from the other side. He told me, early on, that one of the things he likes about me is my intensity. I blew that off. Partly because I had no idea what he was talking about and partly because it sounded suspiciously like a "good" thing and I wasn't interested in positive feedback. (Yeah, I know. Cognitive distortions etc buried there.) One of my best, and oldest friends has told me that I scare people. He says I don't scare HIM, and he couldn't explain it, but that I scare people. I remembered that yesterday and am wondering if it's the "intensity" that maybe scares people? And what I enjoy about talking to my T, and those other few people, is that I don't feel like I have to work to tone that intensity down, I can just be myself? (Still thinking about this.)

I have to say, from a guess, it sounds like it is a thing for you.

I kind of wish it wasn't, but I think you're right. I've spent my whole life telling myself I don't NEED people..... There are some issues there too, I guess.

Even though I know too well online is not in person you

I think I do better online. Here, if I'm going to say something, I have the chance to think it through and reread it. There are a LOT of times I write something and delete it. In person, I got with "when in doubt, keep your mouth shut.".

My only concern is that when your current work, therapy, etc connections end, how will you fill that void?

That's my concern too. My natural inclination (maybe it's not natural, maybe it's learned?) , if I don't have a reason to deal with people is to avoid them. Over the years, I've had a number of customers that I liked get out of horses for one reason or another. Many of them have said "stop by when you're in the neighborhood.". I have no idea if they really mean that or not. Needless to stay, I haven't "stopped by".

 

[Abstract]

Hi @scout86 hopefully will have more time to answer tomorrow or Friday but quickly wanted to comment now quickly.

I remembered that yesterday and am wondering if it's the "intensity" that maybe scares people? And what I enjoy about talking to my T, and those other few people, is that I don't feel like I have to work to tone that intensity down, I can just be myself? (Still thinking about this.)

Interesting. How do you think this links up with those clients who seems to want to interact with you more. Do you have any other words to describe the intensity? Is it directness or more of an energy thing?

I've spent my whole life telling myself I don't NEED people....

Oh my goodness so with you there. 90% of my brain is still there quite often. But for me anyway I actually know that isn't true anymore. Yuck. Saying that is a bit revolting. What would it mean is it wasn't true?

I think I do better online

Again, with you totally. Remember, I cant even get myself into therapy so you are way ahead of me there, For me the distance allows me to bit safer and as you say there is that delay which makes it more contained for want of a better word. I dont know about you but online def counts for me. Just not sure how only online would feel. If you stopped t and work - at present- would there be anything else there?

here are a LOT of times I write something and delete it. In person, I got with "when in doubt, keep your mouth shut.".

Totally with you there too. I also had actually noticed you dont do your own threads much.

I have no idea if they really mean that or not.

What would be the plus and minus aspects of testing it out?

 

[scout86]

@Abstract , thanks for more food for thought! I'm going to chew on this some more between stops today.

How do you think this links up with those clients who seems to want to interact with you more

Honestly? I think most of those people don't know me well enough to know what they're asking for. They like me and enjoy talking to me mostly because i make that part the job. Sort of like being a bartender, or a therapist for that matter. (There are times, in therapy, when we get off on a discussion of how he's doing what he's doing because I recognize the process because i do same sort of thing.)

Do you have any other words to describe the intensity? Is it directness or more of an energy thing?

This is going to be my drive time thought experiment, I think. Because i haven't thought about it before.

cant even get myself into therapy so you are way ahead of me there

I'm really only in therapy because I got lucky. I contacted him by email, kind of by accident. (I really didn't mean to hit "send"on that email!) He replied right away and then made it easy enough follow through that I did. And he turned out to be remarkably good at his job. If things hadn't worked out like they did, my life would be a lot different, and i definitely wouldn't in therapy.

What would be the plus and minus aspects of testing it out?

Another thing I'm going to contemplate. My gut reaction is to notice the rabbit hole that's associated with finding out they didn't mean it, they were, just being nice or, even worse, they THOUGHT they meant it until they got to know me better. People basically feel dangerous, you know? (But feelings are not facts....)