The seeming fashion for labelling people toxic, narcissistic etc

[mylunareclipse]

@berlinda yes!! it's taken me years and years to admit what happened to me in this aspect (in other aspects still far).
I still have a hard time to talk about what happened as for many years I thought it was in my head and it was all my fault. And I thought I needed the approval, the written approval that what happened, happened.
I have started to realize that it doesn't matter what people say happened, because I know my reality, I lived through it, hence my postings in this thread.
But yet, just when you think that it doesn't matter, that you have gotten strong enough and you can accept/define your own reality, the feelings come flooding back, and you wonder why am I not believed? Dunno, I don't post that much really, so not sure why I have been so involved in this topic.

 

[Sideways]

I really don't because it's all a bunch of mind games and I have no proof.

My own personal reflection on my journey through this:
I wasn’t a victim of gaslighting.
But I was a victim of brainwashing. That took me personally years to come to terms with, using that word out loud, in reference to what I went through. That was a real struggle for me. I’m guessing “gaslighting” is similar for you?

To get to the point where I was able to use the word brainwashing - that’s still a work in progress. Still not sure I’m okay with that word (so yeah, I get how powerful words are to our recovery - I totally hear you on that).

Before I got there? I took a long path to reaching the conclusion that my abuser had been deliberately screwing with my head. Deliberately. Mind games. They were hard things to come to terms with. Still not comfortable with that.

To move from “mind games” to “brainwashing”? There was another tonne of work in that. What were the mind games? Because that’s not really a description that says much. It wasn’t owning anything about my abuse, let alone getting to a place of acceptance. “Mind games” was an expression I was just using to minimise a whole series of deliberate and very specific things that were done to me.

And I had to confront each of those things. Letting is sit at “mind games”? Was avoidance. That was me not really wanting to look at “what did I actually go through”.

So, maybe this is all a whole heap of projection on my part. Quite possibly. Or maybe I’m seeing you do something similar. Because I don’t have ‘proof’ either. I have physical and mental scars, but nothing concrete.

Starting with “mind games” was progress for me. And I’m hearing that ‘sociopath’ and ‘narcissist’ is progress for you. Just don’t stop there. Keep going. When you’re ready, and you have the support? Confront it head on.

You don’t have those physical and mental scars from nothing. It is real. Your suffering is real. But your healing isn’t done. If nothing else? Use this as motivation to keep going. At one point, you weren’t able to use words like these in reference to yourself and what you went through.

Now you can. And that’s better, right? There’s some validation in that. But don’t stop at validation - keep going through to acceptance. At your own speed. People here get it. Sometimes it sounds like we don’t, but most often we do. We get it in a really profound way.

 

[mylunareclipse]

I am not going to go back and point fingers at different people or see who said what but I felt dharmagirl was unfairly spoken to.

That is your opinion. We can agree to disagree. I think it is just easier to empathize with people that think like us on a particular topic. I would normally apologize right now. But I am learning that I don't have to apologize for everything. It is what it is.

 

[Sideways]

this is a multigenerational problem

Because my DNA was read differently, my brain was developed differently,

Sorry, I don’t understand what you’re saying here...???

 

[mylunareclipse]

Starting with “mind games” was progress for me. And I’m hearing that ‘sociopath’ and ‘narcissist’ is progress for you. Just don’t stop there. Keep going. When you’re ready, and you have the support? Confront it head on.

You don’t have those physical and mental scars from nothing. It is real. Your suffering is real. But your healing isn’t done. If nothing else? Use this as motivation to keep going. At one point, you weren’t able to use words like these in reference to yourself and what you went through.

Now you can. And that’s better, right? There’s some validation in that. But don’t stop at validation - keep going through to acceptance. At your own speed. People here get it. Sometimes it sounds like we don’t, but most often we do. We get it in a really profound way.

Thank you. Really appreciate your kindness.
This was progress for me as the person's behavior just didn't fit in the box of how I expect(ed) people to act. It was outside of the norm. So labeling it was important to recognize it (and not just gaslighting because it came with other forms of abuse/behaviors, so it was a package).
What saved me ultimately was to learn what I was doing to allow the abuse to happen, not the labeling, the labeling was just the aha moment to understand that this pattern of behavior has a name. I was not crazy. Which then allowed me to detach myself. Ironically, labeling the behavior, helped me move on from focusing on the person, and focusing on myself. In many ways he is just a very hurt person from what I know from his life, but recognizing his behavior helps me remember to not giving him chances when he comes back with "lovebombing" etc.
But yes wow so much more work to do. It took me 2.5 years of therapy to even fully bring this topic up in therapy. And my therapist convinced me to first just get to believe that something "did happen" and leave it at that.

 

[Friday]

Like doubts in my head. Did it happen? Why can't anyone believe me again. Which means there's more hurt and pain, still buried that I thought I had moved through. I do think that I have a hard time labeling the abuse on my side as I still have no words for what happened to me.

Try this on for size... because distance can help...

They were very cruel to me.
They were very PTSD.

Now... if my only experience with someone who was PTSD was with someone who was also cruel? I might merge those 2 things in my mind. And just look at that symptom set! Fight/flight lashing out in anger and fear, emotional dysregulation, mixing up past and present ... every single symptom of PTSD can be painted with a selfish cruel abusive brush... IF that person is also selfish, abusive, and cruel.

But simply saying they’re PTSD? Doesn’t also say that they’re cruel. Sure, I could find lots of people who agree with me... People with PTSD are dangerous, selfish, abusive, untrustworthy assholes... because that’s what a lot of people know. Because they’ve known one person with PTSD. Who was an asshole. But that doesn’t mean that all of us are. Nor that people who understand PTSD better than the 1 jerk they dated who had it will immediately understand what I actually mean is cruel & abusive.

When someone challenges these labels, your emotional response to that is “my suffering is being challenged”.

That’s not the case, though. Because the labels you’ve used about your abuser tell us nothing about what you’ve been through, or what was done to you.

Which ties right back into this ^^^^

My saying the person was very PTSD?
A) Isn’t communicating what I think I’m communicating
B) Is wrong, cruelty isn’t a symptom of PTSD, even if every symptom of PTSD can be directed at someone else in cruel fashion.
C) Being wrong about what descriptor I’m using doesn’t mean I’m wrong about the cruelty. It was real. It happened. I just associated what happened with the wrong word.

It’s not about being disbelieved... it’s about finding the right words to share experience.

Does that parse better?

 

[mylunareclipse]

@Friday I get what you are trying to get at.
But people with NPD do have a set of behaviors.
Now these behaviors can be used to be abusive or not, this is a separate issue.

Let's say you are dating some with BPD and you have no idea what BPD is, you find yourself being value/devalued split on at the drop of a hat. Person is maybe threatening suicide (being on purpose exagerating here). You might be very confused of the behavior, unless you read about what BPD is? At that point, you could decide that you still want to stay in the relationship because you love the person, or you might decide to leave, not because the person in unlovable but because you perhaps are incapable of dealing with the behavior. Same with PTSD, if you don't know what PTSD is and your significant other let's say is dissociating, lashing out, having flashbacks, but you have no idea what PTSD is, it's important for you to recognize the behavior as coming from someone who has PTSD so that you know how to deal with the situation. Or if the person is depressed, it might important for you to label the behavior as coming from a depressed person, and not a "lazy" person.
Now in all the above cases you might have no proof, maybe the person hasn't told you the diagnosis, maybe the person has never been diagnosed because they never saw a clinician. But yet it might help you a lot to read about the set of behaviors and at least to recognize it on your part that that's what's happening to you. That way when it happens again you understand what's happening.

 

[Ronin]

But people with NPD do have a set of behaviors.

What concretely do you mean here, which behaviors & with what relation to the topic?
Because people at large have a set of behaviors.
Might be very well just people being people, what youre flagging as red flags isnt even about that disorder, but projecting back from your abuser TO that disorder.

The same all X do Y. We would be arguing this to hells and back if it were all men/women/ethnicity, whatever. How does it become more acceptable as an argument when its traits attributed to concrete disorders, I dont follow.

 

[mylunareclipse]

The same all X do Y. We would be arguing this to hells and back if it were all men/women/ethnicity, whatever. How does it become more acceptable as an argument when its traits attributed to concrete disorders, I dont follow.

Hi Ronin,
I am sorry. I didn't mean to ignore your previous post either. I just have limited words for my experience. I am unable to pull all the set of behaviors right now. This might be a flaw in my argument. But I know what happened to me, even though I don't have words for it. And it's very hard to explain. But one day I might be able to.
I just have to say that I don't use this term lightly, I haven't labeled this way any of my other abusers.

 

[Gs172003]

O

Hi Ronin,
I am sorry. I didn't mean to ignore your previous post either. I just have limited words for my experience. I am unable to pull all the set of behaviors right now. This might be a flaw in my argument. But I know what happened to me, even though I don't have words for it. And it's very hard to explain. But one day I might be able to.
I just have to say that I don't use this term lightly, I haven't labeled this way any of my other abusers.

Without a diagnosis from a professional, you can't in good faith say someone is truly a narcissist/ sociopath any more than I can say that somebody coughing has pneumonia. I don't have the expertise and neither do you. I think that's what people are trying to say.

 

[mylunareclipse]

O
Without a diagnosis from a professional, you can't in good faith say someone is truly a narcissist/ sociopath any more than I can say that somebody coughing has pneumonia. I don't have the expertise and neither do you. I think that's what people are trying to say.

I am trying to say that there is no way for me to ever find our if this person is NPD or not, I will never have access to their psychiatric diagnosis. Neither would I if the person has depression, or PTSD, yet I can use my own judgement that their behavior meets the criteria and how it affects me.

 

[Gs172003]

I am trying to say that there is no way for me to ever find our if this person is NPD or not, I will never have access to their psychiatric diagnosis. Neither would I if the person has depression, or PTSD, yet I can use my own judgement that their behavior meets the criteria and how it affects me.

If that makes you feel better why not but make sure you realize that doesn't necessarily make it accurate. You can have tendencies or traits without the actual disorder.