The seeming fashion for labelling people toxic, narcissistic etc

[New]

@Mee thanks for saying that.

And you are so right. Every single person on this earth is flawed in some way. And we all make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.

 

[blackemerald1]

Does that bother you as well?

^As I said in my post, if the media use it I may be frustrated with their tendency to overuse or even misuse a diagnostic term rather than use language correctly. Adjectives and adverbs are good and universal. :)

In my private life.. idk... I cringe a little when I hear someone overuse a word but I probably do it too at times. ..shrug...

I have friends who have told me they are annoyed by emojis and too much use of certain words so I’m just trying to understand

^Ask them why. You may find simple language is enough to convey meaning. I don't mind the use of emojis here and there. Depends entirely on the circumstance. :)

I think the ones you feel are not accepting your post may have been either diagnosed with this or know someone who has.

^I don't think so. I think that most people here are sensitive to the trend of overusing diagnostic labels. That's all. I don't know about other people here or anywhere but I'll admit I wouldn't know if I fell over someone who has been diagnosed NPD or for that matter anything else. But I do recognise selfishness, vanity etc as behaviour when I come across it.

But maybe they have had an experience with being labeled incorrectly a

^Maybe...idk but I don't think so. I reckon they would have spoken up and said so. It must be gutting to actually have NPD and hear all of the rubbish comments that are made about people that have this illness. The flagrant use of a label such as this without a professional diagnosis is useless words - that's the basis .

He did and said several things that were very emotionally manipulative and abusive that I didn’t see for years.

^I'm so sorry this happened to you. A similar thing happened to me too... years ago. I asked for proof and it wasn't true, he was a liar too. It is a very undermining thing to say to a person. Particularly if it is coming from a boss

 

[Sideways]

Does that bother you as well? Just curious and not trying to be argumentative. I have friends who have told me they are annoyed by emojis and too much use of certain words so I’m just trying to understand. Thank.

The difference here for me? Is that trend words like “whatevs”, or “awesome” getting overused? That’s going to irk some people (everyone has their own private little things that irritate them!).

But it’s not name-calling, it doesn’t involve pathology of any kind.

What disturbs me when ‘narcissist’ gets used, or (worse still, ‘sociopath’ - because are they telling me this person has been diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder? Or are they just name-calling), we seem to be trending towards using references to types of mental illness as a trump card with “obviously this person is the very essence of evil...because they’re a narcissist”.

You don’t have to read too many psychology articles before you realise that ‘narcissistic’ is now considered a reference to any kind of unlikeable personality trait.

Dr Phil (hehe, best show on the planet - makes me feel well-adjusted!) makes the point of not calling people ‘crazy’. Because it’s a derogatory term. And it insinuates that having a mental illness is tantamount to being completely unlikeable/unpersonable/unsalvageable etc.

Bt ‘crazy’ pales in comparison to using references to actual mental health conditions in order to put someone down.

If someone is ‘self-centred’? Call them that. If it’s more complex than that? Use your words, you know? Don’t just reference some mental health condition or pop psychology. Describe what you actually mean. Otherwise it’s just name-calling, which was effective as a communication style in Grade 3, but (hopefully) we’ve all learned why simple name-calling is not actually helpful. To anyone.

Using mental illness references as a way to demonstrate someone is a toxic person? That’s not okay. That’s just plain old stigma.

Which is very different from being irritated by someone saying “rad” (which, frankly, should be brought back into use!) or “peace out” or????

There are people here who are diagnosed with NPD. They are not bad people. They are not unlikeable people. They are not toxic people.

I’ve spent quality time with a guy who was diagnosed with NPD and required hospitalisation for it. Not because he was toxic, or malignant. He was self-destructing with his own impossibly unrealistic brilliance, and apart from being pretty good company? His story was incredibly sad. His treatment options were limited. He was a good person, with a terrible illness, and the only life that illness was destroying? Was his own.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I think I need to clarify my communication here as from this response it’s clear we aren’t talking about the same thing.

I’m going to try to clarify by giving an example.

Let’s say a behaviour is ‘silent treatment/ghosting’ because that’s also very buzz word-y right now and relates to abusive patterns of behaviour often.

So. My friend John Doe stops calling me. I am ghosted. I note the other times he has let me down. It’s possible I am no good to him as narcissistic supply anymore.

It’s also possible that he stopped calling me because of something I said. Because of my thoughtlessness.

Or it’s possible that he has had a crisis and his stresscuo is full and he cannot take me right now.

Or it’s possible or friendship just ...isn’t working for him right now. Modern communication makes the gentle fade out that used to be organic a little more difficult.

On one hand as victims we are told cut anyone abusive out of our lives, feel no guilt, don’t look back. On the other hand. Ghosting is a modern sin correlated with cowardice or ego problems and narcissism.
The narcissist: someone who is hot and cold to people, lies then twists a lie to make you think you are crazy, gaslights, ghosts, picks favorites in the family, needs to have the final say, pretends to be dumb when they are not, claims to have a poor memory but can pull out the laundry list to support a claim and recall when it is to their benefit, and is motivated by personal gain-motivation is all about him/her....not the good works to feel good inside.....the narcissist has no empathy (can not feel what it is like to walk in another's shoes (but usually is able to appear sympathetic), and is terribly afraid to be alone-the narcissist needs others to feed his ego.

The truth is I don’t know what has ‘motivated’ John Doe to ghost me. It could be one of those things, or something else. Part of a pattern of abuse or not. It could be a reactive abuse, a trigger of an attachment style for Mr Doe. I don’t know because I don’t have the scoop. I just don’t. And if he IS abusive and deceptive I couldn’t trust the scoop.

The same performed actions can have different motivations. Someone with PTSD could appear like a mean, selfish and various other diagnoses to someone not informed. This space is rigid about self diagnosis being inappropriate for ptsd. So why would our amateur diagnosis of others be appropriate?

They injured us, is more than enough I think. What their injury is isn’t my problem. Trying to worry about that is actually part of my mine.


I’m not trying to say I find this comfortable and easy ; I don’t, especially because it’s so prolific.

FWIW my therapist also thinks we shouldn’t look to our diagnosis too much in healing. Know it. But address the healing as individual. I go back and forth on whether I agree with her on this.

RE the concern about overlabeling people toxic/narcissistic: In my experience, the narcissist: someone who is hot and cold to people, lies then twists a lie to make you think you are crazy, gaslights, ghosts, picks favorites in the family, needs to have the final say, pretends to be dumb when they are not, claims to have a poor memory but can pull out the laundry list to support a claim and recall when it is to their benefit, and is motivated by personal gain-motivation is all about him/her....not the good works to feel good inside.....the narcissist has no empathy (can not feel what it is like to walk in another's shoes)- (but usually is able to appear sympathetic), and is terribly afraid to be alone-the narcissist needs others to feed his/her ego. Narcissists also like to triangulate, manipulate relationships......gossip.......spread hurt through telling things. The narcissist needs co-dependents to help get his narcissistic energy. The narcissist believes his way is the best....believes he is right and some have no clue that there is another way. Many narcissists can be described as big time bullys. Relationships with the narcissist can change from being the good person to being the black sheep......if it feeds that persons ego. You could have been told you were loved all along, and circumstances change, and one day you are noone....history, loyalty, and emotions have nothing to do with it.....love is not felt by a narcissist.

Why we need to know about narcissists or toxic people? As far as understanding the narcissist, I didn't understand the relationship I was in. I was a puppet....on a string. I was treated badly...I didn't know that was gas-lighting.....I had to learn what gas-lighting was. So, there are therapists I know who won't treat narcissists. I never asked why, but you don't see many that advertise around here. I'm glad someone told me about narcissism.....because those were they dynamics playing out in my marriage.....and a relationship with a narcissist is very, very dysfunctional and really hard to "get rid of the person 100%-they keep coming back.....to screw with me."

Narcissists, Trauma-Related Disorders, Diagnosis: Today's society is raising more sick kids.....parents aren't doing their job, and there are more narcissistic kids growing up...more bullies (and in school, they can't be touched-beat up-or the victim gets into trouble too). Having a diagnosis does help to treat the problem, or determine whether there is an effective treatment for a disorder. I don't know if narcissistic people can learn to feel empathy.....I'm not sure one can be wired with empathy if their whole life's motivations have been about them, being right, and in control. While I think we all have the capacity to be narcissistic at times, I think the type of toxic bullying/narcissism (it is repeated over and over, degrading to the victim, and there is unfair advantage) I speak of is very damaging....not just a simple case of ghosting.

 

[Sideways]

@TruthSeeker : “toxic”, defined by the Cambridge, Oxford and Meriam-Webster dictionaries, means “poisonous”. Nothing more, nothing less.

So, when people use the word ‘toxic’ in respect to a relationship, I think it would be a huuuuuuge leap to infer it means all of the things you’ve outlined above.

 

[blackemerald1]

So, there are therapists I know who won't treat narcissists. I never asked why, but you don't see many that advertise around here.

^Could it be that it requires quite a lot of expertise to treat NPD?

 

[TruthSeeker]

^Could it be that it requires quite a lot of expertise to treat NPD?

Yes, but I also have read about treating it.....and apparently people who aren't wired for empathy don't usually tend to ever "get there"-
in the feelings world. They are master mind-fkrs and to treat one, and they themselves don't see a real need for therapy....If I were a counselor, I'd have a hard time sitting in a room with someone who lies and believes it, and who'd have fun gaslighting me.

 

[Rani G2]

Yes, there are people here who have been diagnosed with NPD, who have done years of therapy. It took me almost 10 years to truly, authentically say/ express what/how I feel. Empathy and compassion comes in small doses after so many years of learning to dive into my own world of emotions. I will not define my whole being with the title NPD, given by a psychiatrist several years ago. It might be hard maybe for many to believe that having less compassion/empathy can be tormenting. I have had tendencies to lie, manipulate and control BUT the moment these thoughts arise I am able to get in touch with my fragile selfparts who are in extreme fear of feeling vulnerable/breakable. They need space to express themselves, and taken care of. After so many years I am getting there. I don’t think I am empathetic as I should be, or how society defines empathy. I am married and in a stable relationship.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Yes, there are people here who have been diagnosed with NPD, who have done years of therapy. It took me almost 10 years to truly, authentically say/ express what/how I feel. Empathy and compassion comes in small doses after so many years of learning to dive into my own world of emotions. I will not define my whole being with the title NPD, given by a psychiatrist several years ago. It might be hard maybe for many to believe that having less compassion/empathy can be tormenting. I have had tendencies to lie, manipulate and control BUT the moment these thoughts arise I am able to get in touch with my fragile selfparts who are in extreme fear of feeling vulnerable/breakable. They need space to express themselves, and taken care of. After so many years I am getting there. I don’t know if NPD has validity now, I am married and in a stable relationship.

I'm so happy for you.....really, that gives me hope for those others whom I know and loved, that if they sought help....maybe the could feel, too.

 

[Rani G2]

really, that gives me hope for those others whom I know and loved, that if they sought help

Thanks @TruthSeeker it took me a very long time to get there, usually when the whole construct collapses you take action. There are two or three people to whom I own an apology and I do feel and I mean feel sorry.

 

[blackemerald1]

.If I were a counselor, I'd have a hard time sitting in a room with someone who lies and believes it, and who'd have fun gaslighting me.

^The thing about therapists.. as with all professionals who work in areas where expertise and qualifications are critical... is they get to choose. There are many psydocs and therapists who are more than happy to work with NPD and lots of other psychiatric illnesses and mental health conditions too. Many that are seemingly just as intractable as you say NPD is. They are trained and experienced in the traits of these conditions. They are not scared or uncomfortable with working with people who have these conditions so they can help and treat these people. And that at the end of the day is what is important. That treatment is available and those that do want it can get it.

I can see why you may be uncomfortable @TruthSeeker - obviously you are not trained or an expert in treating these conditions. You have your trauma tied up with people who exhibited these traits possibly? Idk..

And yeah @PURUSHA - I was aware that you were diagnosed and had been having treatment for your illness. If some people who refused treatment for ptsd owned up to their mental health illness and showed as much tenacity there could be a better outcome for them too.

 

[Mee]

^The thing about therapists.. as with all professionals who work in areas where expertise and qualifications are critical... is they get to choose. There are many psydocs and therapists who are more than happy to work with NPD and lots of other psychiatric illnesses and mental health conditions too. Many that are seemingly just as intractable as you say NPD is. They are trained and experienced in the traits of these conditions. They are not scared or uncomfortable with working with people who have these conditions so they can help and treat these people. And that at the end of the day is what is important. That treatment is available and those that do want it can get it.

This, so much this. My therapist is a specialist in sexual trauma. Her previous work was with perpetrators as well as victims. My T made a conscious decision to work with perps. Then a conscious decision to refocus and no longer work in that sphere. What we do in all our careers and life choices might depend on other stressors, demands, growth, understanding, interests. I know my career trajectory is such that I would not feel happy had I been stuck with decisions I made early on and if we have to stick with the same thought process, well frankly, as people here for a reason we are all in trouble. I have to believe my thoughts can continue to develop. After all, I am fundamentally different to who I was three years ago, and she was different to who I was ten years before, if less dramatically. Growth happens.

@PURUSHA i learned from reading your contribution. I think you are courageous and showed compassion adding your voice here. ? thank you